Why you don't really have free will

Scary_Turtle

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What has the 99% thing got to do with the truth?
Nothing just that one is harder to prove then the other.

You asked me a question which I answered.
You were unhappy with the answer, retorted with a (silly/irrational) snarky comment, and then have the audacity to play the victim.
I never asked you a question Prawnapple did, I asked you for proof, which you haven't given and you followed with a question not an answer. Still the most true answer I can give and is an actual answer unlike yours.

I don't see how your problem is now also my problem.
Cool ignore everything your good at it.

Whether or not you believe/accept something to be true/false has nothing to do with whether or not it is in fact true/false.
The only thing that changes is your belief/acceptance thereof.
Yes it does (I would like to believe as many true things as possible), when I don't know I say I believe this but don't have a definitive answer I have believed untrue things and I'm sure I still do but I'm willing to change when the proof is presented to me.

Stating a fact like you did with no proof is ignorant.

You keep saying that I am ignorant, but have not yet pointed out the ignorance.
Ignorance is for example to argue that "the non-belief that GOD exists" is different from "the belief that GOD does not exist".
Huh!! when I say your argument is of ignorance is that not pointing it out, would you like me quote your post with Ignorance ======>>>>>>> what ponderer said <<<<<=======Ignorance.

Back to the circular argument again did you not get enough fiber this morning?
 

Ponderer

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I will bite...

No the outcome of a dice roll is not truly random. You can control the dice if you're a very good craps player.
I expressly stipulated the outcome of a fair dice roll.
You know what that means, right?
How about answering the question.
 

Bobbin

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I expressly stipulated the outcome of a fair dice roll.
You know what that means, right?
How about answering the question.
If you mean mathematically fair (theory), then the outcome is probabilistic as far as I'm aware. But you can't predict it with certainty.

No physical die would be 100% fair though. Casinos try their best to mitigate this with smooth cornered die and insisting the die bounces off the back board in order to make it increasingly difficult to control. So basically it's almost like encryption, obfuscating the raw data with added complexity, incalculable in real-time but solvable in theory.

Not that I've done much reading up on this subject, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct.
 
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Arksun

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If you mean mathematically fair (theory), then the outcome is probabilistic as far as I'm aware. But you can't predict it with certainty.

No physical die would be 100% fair though. Casinos try their best to mitigate this with smooth cornered die and insisting the die bounces off the back board in order to make it increasingly difficult to control. So basically it's almost like encryption, obfuscating the raw data with added complexity, incalculable in real-time but solvable in theory.

Not that I've done much reading up on this subject, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct.
Whether it's fair or not still doesnt change the fact that it's not random, though
 

Ponderer

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If you mean mathematically fair (theory), then the outcome is probabilistic as far as I'm aware. But you can't predict it with certainty.

No physical die would be 100% fair though. Casinos try their best to mitigate this with smooth cornered die and insisting the die bounces off the back board in order to make it increasingly difficult to control. So basically it's almost like encryption, obfuscating the raw data with added complexity, incalculable in real-time but solvable in theory.

Not that I've done much reading up on this subject, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct.
Has it ever happened that you have been corrected on anything?
 

Ponderer

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Whether it's fair or not still doesnt change the fact that it's not random, though
If the outcome of a fair dice roll is not random, what is it then?

<edit>
You have also not yet responded to post #1115.
 
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rietrot

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You contending that the outcome of a fair dice roll is not random?
The problem is with the definition of random.

The probability of getting any one of the numbers 1-6 is supposed to be random at any one throw of the dice.

That there is only 1-6 possible outcomes is not random it is very specific. True random/chaos would be the dice rolling itself when it feels like it and getting something unexpected like an elephant, but there's already order in those things. So I don't think there's such a thing as "random".

Probably one of the main reasons I cannot be an atheist.
 
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Prawnapple

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The problem is with the definition of random.

The probability of getting any one of the numbers 1-6 is supposed to be random at any one throw of the dice.

That there is only 1-6 possible outcomes is not random it is very specific. True random/chaos would be the dice rolling itself when it feels like it and getting something unexpected like an elephant, but there's already order in those things. So I don't think there's such a thing as "random".

Probably one of the main reasons I cannot be an atheist.
Very interesting response. Could you perhaps elaborate on this point? Why would no randomness (i.e. an "orderly" / deterministic universe) equate to not being able to be an atheist?
 

rietrot

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Very interesting response. Could you perhaps elaborate on this point? Why would no randomness (i.e. an "orderly" / deterministic universe) equate to not being able to be an atheist?
You can not get something from nothing, you can not get spontaneous order out of complete chaos. If you follow that to it's logical conclusion you end up with at least intelligent design and a creator god.
 

Prawnapple

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You can not get something from nothing, you can not get spontaneous order out of complete chaos. If you follow that to it's logical conclusion you end up with at least intelligent design and a creator god.
Thanks for the response. Of course, I have some issues with that point, but this is not the correct thread for that :p
 

Bobbin

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You can not get something from nothing, you can not get spontaneous order out of complete chaos. If you follow that to it's logical conclusion you end up with at least intelligent design and a creator god.
"You can not get something from nothing" - I agree. But this then might imply infinity. Something always existed.

"You can not get spontaneous order out of complete chaos" - Sort of agreed. But to add a caveat, as soon as laws/rules/causality is applied to chaos then order will surely arise, it's a causal chain from there.

"...you end up with at least intelligent design and a creator God" - Maybe. But this is tricky. Nobody knows if it had to be intelligence that was the first cause or mover.

So infinity plus causality (infinite set of laws and permutations) plus lack of intelligence/creation could in theory also yield the same outcome somewhere ultimately. And perhaps a God even exists in some of them and others not - the mind boggles at this point.

BUT, that said, I accept your assessment as well. Nothing wrong with it :) Neither can be proven, I think both are logical (valid arguments) without more information. Neither are sound arguments as we cannot prove the premise.

Indeterminism and determinism are both if statements as far as I'm concerned. I just happen to choose the determinism argument as I find it more useful, personally. My senses literally scan for it, can't help it :)
 
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scud

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OT but Is there should be room in the multiverse for a universe with a god and one without a god.
Or one with and one without free will
Also given enough time and resources , we shouldn’t we be able to build a god ?
 

rietrot

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"You can not get something from nothing" - I agree. But this then might imply infinity. Something always existed.

"You can not get spontaneous order out of complete chaos" - Sort of agreed. But to add a caveat, as soon as laws/rules/causality is applied to chaos then order will surely arise, it's a causal chain from there.

"...you end up with at least intelligent design and a creator God" - Maybe. But this is tricky. Nobody knows if it had to be intelligence that was the first cause or mover.
Laws/rules/causality is intelligence

"Nobody knows" lol. We know by definition and very simple logic.
 

Prawnapple

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Laws/rules/causality is intelligence

"Nobody knows" lol. We know by definition and very simple logic.
I have so many questions.

1) Do all laws/rules count as intelligent or only some/most?
2) What created the creator god? Where did it come from?
3) If it exists outside of time and space and created said time and space, how can you A) possible know this, B) know which being created it all?
4) If you're going to call it god, can you at least define it? 4.a) What are its attributes? 4.b) Where is it now? 4.c) Why has it not shown itself in all this time?
5) What makes you so sure it not a gang of gay, angry, fairy-beings that created the omniverse?
6) Why can thoughts, feelings, desires, consciousness, not arise from "plain" matter, physics and evolution?
7) Can this god create something so heavy that even it can't move said thing?
8) Why does it allow suffering, pain, anguish, hatred, anger and death?
 

Ponderer

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OT but Is there should be room in the multiverse for a universe with a god and one without a god.
Or one with and one without free will
Also given enough time and resources , we shouldn’t we be able to build a god ?
multiverse
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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Prawnapple

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OT but Is there should be room in the multiverse for a universe with a god and one without a god.
Or one with and one without free will
Also given enough time and resources , we shouldn’t we be able to build a god ?
 
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