Why you don't really have free will

Techne

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I'm convinced you guys are just taking the piss now.

It's either deterministic or not. Wtf is so hard to understand?

INDETERMINISM IS ACASUAL AND THUS A MIRACLE. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!! THERE'S NOTHING TO EMBRACE. A CHILD CAN UNDERSTAND THIS FFS

Or let's go with the alternative that God and his actions is completely slave to causality shall we? Let's see how far you get with this...

I can't believe what I'm reading right now. Wow. And you have the gall to call it silly and dilemma etc... Hahahahahaah
Aaai shame, every time those electrons change spin in an indeterministic manner your must explode at the sight of those acausal miracles :X3:
 

Bobbin

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Aaai shame, every time those electrons change spin in an indeterministic manner your must explode at the sight of those acausal miracles :X3:
If those electron spins are not subject to some other as yet undiscovered causal relationship then yes, my head would explode at trying to explain them rationally. So should yours. We would have no option but to accept them as proof of immaterial illogical influence and thus a miracle.

What's so wrong about using the word miracle? Am I not allowed to say it? How about divine then?
 

Bobbin

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Why do I feel like I'm now having to describe the essence of God's influence to religious people too. What even is going on? I think I woke up in the twilight zone at some point.
 

rietrot

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I'm convinced you guys are just taking the piss now.

It's either deterministic or not. Wtf is so hard to understand?

INDETERMINISM IS ACASUAL AND THUS A MIRACLE. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!! THERE'S NOTHING TO EMBRACE. A CHILD CAN UNDERSTAND THIS FFS

Or let's go with the alternative that God and his actions is completely slave to causality shall we? Let's see how far you get with this...

I can't believe what I'm reading right now. Wow. And you have the gall to call it silly and dilemma etc... Haha hahaha ah. You ****ing okes are going to drive me absolutely mad. :ROFL:

I wish I could draw this **** out for you in person... Clearly something is not getting through.
Well pick your Miracles. Because you require more of a miracle to create order out of chaos without an intelligent designer and you can't explain that scientifically. You can't even explain what life is scientifically except that it is a complex miracle.

So what's the problem with miracles?

BTW. You bold rant is wrong.
Indeterminism isn't necessarily acasual, because we have free will.
 

Bobbin

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Well pick your Miracles. Because you require more of a miracle to create order out of chaos without an intelligent designer and you can't explain that scientifically. You can't even explain what life is scientifically except that it is a complex miracle.

So what's the problem with miracles?

BTW. You bold rant is wrong.
Indeterminism isn't necessarily acasual, because we have free will.
I have philosophical material plausible explanations for all the things you've mentioned. But let's not go there anymore, you guys just ignore anyway.

In the last point... If it's wrong then fine, let's discuss...

Free will itself is supposed to be acausal. Because if it were causal you arrive at hard determinism. So your last statement appears to be invalid, unless you have an immaterial understanding of causality that I'm not aware of. I can't however picture anything immaterial and causal at the same time, these words seem to contradict.
 

rietrot

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I have philosophical explanations for all the things you've mentioned. But let's not go there anymore, you guys just ignore anyway.

In the last point... If it's wrong then fine, let's discuss...

Free will itself is supposed to be acausal. Because if it were causal you arrive at hard determinism. So your last statement appears to be invalid.
Not everything is black and white, shít happens. Dead things are causal, and sometimes living things are plaqued by the sins of their fathers so they struggle a bit to take responsibility and accept their acasualness.

And then you have all these other free agents doing stupid shít all over the place and having an influence on the natural world.
It's complicated.
 
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Bobbin

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You claim to pursue the truth, but reject absolutely everything.
For example - what have you learned about free will?
For that matter, what have you learned about anything - can you name a single thing that you learned (found to be true)?
What claims have I rejected?
 

Bobbin

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Not everything is black and white, shít happens. Dead things are causal, and sometimes living things are plaqued by the sins of their fathers so they struggle a bit to take responsibility and accept their acasualness.

And then you have all these other free agents doing stupid shít all over the place and having an influence on the natural world.
It's complicated.
I don't dispute this. But it seems I would have to assume indeterminism is real in order to follow this line of reasoning. I am not disputing indeterminism. It's an intriguing idea. But I can't prove it either. The only possible evidence I'm aware of is Techne's electron thing and similar such findings in Quantum Physics, and I emphasize the word possible.
 

Techne

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If those electron spins are not subject to some other as yet undiscovered causal relationship then yes, my head would explode at trying to explain them rationally. So should yours. We would have no option but to accept them as proof of immaterial illogical influence and thus a miracle.

What's so wrong about using the word miracle? Am I not allowed to say it? How about divine then?
When you cling to crude, illogical materialism and Greek atomistic causality your head will forever explode and the best you can do is believe in miracles.
 

Bobbin

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When you cling to crude, illogical materialism and Greek atomistic causality your head will forever explode and the best you can do is believe in miracles.
I would have to bare witness to a confirmed miracle first. That's never happened.
 

Techne

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I would have to bare witness to a confirmed miracle first. That's never happened.
Behold the miracle of indeterministic electron spin change. Empirically verified for at least 50 years now.

Just to be sure, I don't see it as miracles. Your metaphysics necessitates that they must be.
 

Bobbin

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Behold the miracle of indeterministic electron spin change. Empirically verified for at least 50 years now.
hahaha nice try. Two problems:

A) I don't think it is officially confirmed to be indeterministic
B) It's at a level of science not accessible to a layman such as myself

All I can honestly do is acknowledge the possibility. To which I merely shrug and carry on.

Will have to wait and see I suppose.
 

Techne

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hahaha nice try. Two problems:

A) I don't think it is confirmed to be indeterministic
B) It's at a level of science not accessible to a layman such as myself

All I can honestly do is acknowledge the possibility. To which I merely shrug and carry on.

Will have to wait and see I suppose.
You cannot know A) because of B). And you are wrong on A) and you will never know why... because of B). It is now a case of where your self-admitted ignorance and inability to understand prevents you from... understanding.
 

Bobbin

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You cannot know A) because of B). And you are wrong on A) and you will never know why... because of B). It is now a case of where your self-amitted ignorance and inability to understand prevents you from... understanding.
Ignorance or capability?

I don't not want to know so I doubt we can call it ignorance. That leaves incapability...

Imagine that... God made me so stupid that I cannot believe. What a tragedy :D Imagine me arriving at the pearly gates and realizing my God-given limitation prohibited me from understanding... I'd bloody picket!

Disclaimer: Assuming it's all true.
 

rietrot

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Ignorance or capability?

I don't not want to know so I doubt we can call it ignorance. That leaves incapability...

Imagine that... God made me so stupid that I cannot believe. What a tragedy :D Imagine me arriving at the pearly gates and realizing my God-given limitation prohibited me from understanding... I'd bloody picket!

Disclaimer: Assuming it's all true.
Willful ignorance almost to the point of outright dishonesty.

You admit something is possible in one post and then in the next you pretend to understand nothing, that makes me think you are actually smarter than what you give yourself credit for.

The struggle is real.
 

Bobbin

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Willful ignorance almost to the point of outright dishonesty.

You admit something is possible in one post and then in the next you pretend to understand nothing, that makes me think you are actually smarter than what you give yourself credit for.

The struggle is real.
This analysis doesn't make sense.

Admitting to something being possible doesn't mean I accept it to be true. It is merely possible. I don't know if it is true. How is this being willfully ignorant and dishonest? If anything... it's 100000% honest. Like, one cannot possibly be more honest or direct than that lol

This is like me telling you that you're willfully ignorant of a unicorn-like creature existing near alpha centauri. It is possible you know. So now you must accept that it is true and live your life accordingly!!! Or I'm going to keep calling you dishonest!!! :D
 

Ponderer

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Ignorance or capability?

I don't not want to know so I doubt we can call it ignorance. That leaves incapability...

Imagine that... God made me so stupid that I cannot believe. What a tragedy :D Imagine me arriving at the pearly gates and realizing my God-given limitation prohibited me from understanding... I'd bloody picket!

Disclaimer: Assuming it's all true.
You clearly might have the capacity to understand, but you are refusing to grasp/understand anything.
You either lack the capability/capacity to grasp/understand, or you are willfully refusing to grasp/understand.

So.
Are you stupid or obtuse.
 

Bobbin

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You clearly might have the capacity to understand, but you are refusing to grasp/understand anything.
You either lack the capability/capacity to grasp/understand, or you are willfully refusing to grasp/understand.

So.
Are you stupid or obtuse.
It's Techne that forced that ultimatum on me. I feel I perfectly understand the difference between causality and miracles. I'm not sure what he is expecting of me though. If I haven't witnessed a confirmed miracle or divine intervention then what am I supposed to do exactly?

How is an interpretation of a highly complex science experiment in a reality we know so little about in the first place really supposed to sway my judgement? Put yourself in my shoes here.
 

Ponderer

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It's Techne that forced that ultimatum on me. I feel I perfectly understand the difference between causality and miracles. I'm not sure what he is expecting of me though. If I haven't witnessed a confirmed miracle or divine intervention then what am I supposed to do exactly?

How is an interpretation of a highly complex science experiment in a reality we know so little about in the first place really supposed to sway my judgement? Put yourself in my shoes here.
If by now you still don't know whether or not free will exists, you never will.

So.
Are you stupid or obtuse.
 

Bobbin

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If by know you still don't know whether or not free will exists, you never will.

So.
Are you stupid or obtuse.
What a hypocritical perspective...

Neither of us can know free will to be true.
Neither of us have the right to call each other stupid in this regard.
So what makes your beliefs of the subject superior to mine?

Even if you're right, and even if free will leads to your specific God (another highly contestable issue), even God surely doesn't give you superiority over anyone else to say such a thing?

So by what right do you feel you're superior on this subject?
 
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