Why you don't really have free will

rietrot

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
18,513
The alternative to a first cause or mover is of course infinity. I suppose this works with the whole something can't come from nothing prospect as well.

In infinity, there is infinite chance of order and chaos.
Good luck with your random infinite universe.
 

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,985
Good luck with your random infinite universe.
They should make an "epic rap battles of history" where it's The First Cause vs Infinity. I'm just not sure how either would be presented, other than the user staring at a blank screen :ROFL:
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
24,100
You are the one making things up my dude.

You are literally saying to me (translated) that causality need not necessarily be causal. And hell, I was prepared to break all rules I know about and accept even that! And you still have an issue with "my stance". :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

Jissus I just can't get a break can I. hahaha. What more do you want??!?! :laugh:
Ever thought your "translation" might be the problem? What I said was that indeterminism is not necessarily acausal which is true. I even gave you another example which would be equally absurd if one follows the same train of thought. You're the one assuming determinism means causal so therefor indeterminism must mean acausal. It's a logical fallacy.

I suppose another way of looking at it...

You roll a 6 sided die:

In a causal/deterministic framework you can only roll 1;2;3;4;5 or 6.
In an acausal/indeterminate framework you could roll 1076 (miracles can happen, water into wine), but you could also roll 1;2;3;4;5 or 6 with unknown probability (miracles can happen here too).
In a random framework you could roll an elephant, and maybe not even see it. Maybe it rolls you :p

Shoh, actually had to think about that one and edit a bit.
In an indeterminate/deterministic framework you can only roll 1;2;3;4;5 or 6.
In a causal/deterministic framework you may be able to predict which one it will be.
In an indeterminate framework you can't predict which one it will be but you can predict it must be 1;2;3;4;5 or 6.
In an acausal/random framework you could roll any one or another or even your elephant. :)
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
24,100
Indeterminism simply means that not all events that happen have a cause. Some events simply happen without anything leading to them. Those events are sometimes called uncaused, acausal, non-caused, or not caused events. The term I prefer is “acausal”, but any of these will do the trick.

I don’t like to use certain terms such as random or spontaneous unless they are absolutely necessary. Such terms have ambiguous meanings, some of which don’t mean the same thing as being “acausal”. For example, some might consider a roll of dice to be “random” simply because we don’t know what the outcome will be. Such, however, isn’t truly random in the acausal sense. Technically the dice being thrown a specific way, the air, the gravity, the ground it lands on, the weight of the dice themselves, and so on… are all causal factors that output the results of the dice. If you’ve read the article on determinism you’d see that determinism doesn’t imply predictability. The use of the word “random” in the sense of dice being rolled can happen in an entirely deterministic (causal) universe. A word like “acausal”, however, is clear. There is no confusing such a word. If an event is acausal, there is no cause for the event.

If we were to say “The Universe is Indeterministic”, it would mean that at least some of the events that happen in the universe just happen with no other existing factor forcing them. Indeterminism does not mean all events are like this – another common confusion people make. A mix of causal events and acausal events would be considered “indeterministic”. In fact, if there are just one or two acausal events in the universe, such possibilities means that the universe is “indeterministic”. It simply means that the universe is not entirely causal.

It’s important to note that we simply don’t know if the universe is deterministic or indeterministic. Some people who quote Quantum Mechanics make the claim that such proves the universe is indeterministic. They are wrong. It all depends on the Quantum Interpretation the person is subscribing to. Some interpretations, such as the Copenhagen Interpretation, are indeterministic, others, such as Bohmian Mechanics or a Many Worlds Interpretation are deterministic. There are a whole bunch of interpretations. The important thing to note about each of the interpretations is that they are not the science of Quantum Mechanics (though some such as the ensemble interpretation tend to make fewer assumptions) . They are “interpretations” OF the science. Think of them more as the philosophy of why things are the way they are within the mathematics and experiments of Quantum Mechanics.

Each of the interpretations have parts that are very counter-intuitive. An indeterministic interpretation that assumes acausal events happen, have to contend with what it means to say that an event has no cause. I go much deeper into this within my book, but there are problems that need to be addressed when an event simply cannot have any spacial or temporal determinacy (which means it could happen anywhere, at anytime, or never). That’s not to say that a deterministic universe wouldn’t have troubling counter-intuitiveness built in as well (e.g. non-local hidden variables, decoherence, etc.).

What’s important, and what I stress, is that even if such an indeterministic universe existed, any acausal events that occur could not help free will. They would be every bit incompatible, and in fact, it is more likely to make things much worse to any creature in which an acausal event happens for the process of a decision. At best, if the acausal event just happens to produces the same results a causal event would, such would be benign.
---
There are not my words, but rather those of Trick Slattery: I'd suggest checking his stuff out: https://breakingthefreewillillusion.com/
Yes the term you prefer. Just because you prefer it does not mean it's the correct term or the correct meaning.

I agree on the term random. Random means entirely uncaused and unpredictable. One moment you may be drinking it. The next it could be a space ship going to pluto. Or it could be an elephant on it's way to the market. When people talk about random what they usually mean is pseudo random or indeterminate. Like a die can roll 6 numbers but it can't roll a seventh or one in between.

Who claimed the universe is indeterminate? It's causal/determinate on a large level. But that doesn't mean there aren't indeterminate aspects and there may even be a lot of indeterminism on a subatomic level even if most of it may not have a material effect. The only way we can know about the state of the universe as a whole is if we could split the universe and if e.g. two stars develop exactly the same way. If they don't it's indeterminate. If the big bang is true then there was a lot of indeterminism initially which led to the current state of the universe.

Again the many worlds interpretation is not a deterministic one. It merely states that all states unfold but the "path" taken is still indeterministic. So far the only interpretation of quantum mechanics as I said that makes sense is that it's indeterministic. All other interpretations doesn't hold up to scrutiny against the evidence. Funny how you believe the evidence for evolution is overwhelming yet go against the overwhelming evidence for quantum indeterminism.
 

Ponderer

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,471
I suppose another way of looking at it...

You roll a 6 sided die:

In a causal/deterministic framework you can only roll 1;2;3;4;5 or 6.
In an acausal/indeterminate framework you could roll 1076 (miracles can happen, water into wine), but you could also roll 1;2;3;4;5 or 6 with unknown probability (miracles can happen here too).
In a random framework you could roll an elephant, and maybe not even see it. Maybe it rolls you :p

Shoh, actually had to think about that one and edit a bit.
Wow - truly astounding.
What a genius.
 
Last edited:

Ponderer

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,471
The alternative to a first cause or mover is of course infinity. I suppose this works with the whole something can't come from nothing prospect as well.

In infinity, there is infinite chance of order and chaos.
"The alternative to a first cause or mover is of course infinity."
Of course it is.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,041
Ever thought your "translation" might be the problem? What I said was that indeterminism is not necessarily acausal which is true. I even gave you another example which would be equally absurd if one follows the same train of thought. You're the one assuming determinism means causal so therefor indeterminism must mean acausal. It's a logical fallacy.
I did not say causality doesn't occur in a universe with indeterminism. Was it not I who spoke of compatibilism recently? ;)

But in an indeterministic event specifically, i.e. a miracle, there is no measurement or prediction possible. i.e. God would be beyond fate and humans could not predict God's will. Indeterminism, i.e. Techne's electrons are literally unpredictable. There's no chain of preceeding causes to directly influence the next or the chain is broken somewhere.

How is this not getting through?

Think about a line of dominoes and explain the difference between determinism and Indeterminism maybe?
 
Last edited:

Ponderer

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,471
I did not say causality doesn't occur in a universe with indeterminism. Was it not I who spoke of compatibilism recently? ;)

But in an indeterministic event specifically, i.e. a miracle, there is no measurement or prediction possible. i.e. God would be beyond fate and humans could not predict God's will. Indeterminism, i.e. Techne's electrons are literally unpredictable. There's no chain of preceeding causes to directly influence the next or the chain is broken somewhere.

How is this not getting through?

Think about a line of dominoes and explain the difference between determinism and Indeterminism maybe?
"Indeterminism, i.e. Techne's electrons are literally unpredictable."
Can you please clearly explain what you mean by that?
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,041
"Indeterminism, i.e. Techne's electrons are literally unpredictable."
Can you please clearly explain what you mean by that?
It's Techne who's using the unpredictable electron spin experiment as a demonstration to prove indeterminism as opposed to hard determinism. Ask him.
 

satanboy

Psychonaut seven
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
98,799
Some idiot with free will reported a post I made here....makes this thread irrelevant doesn't it?
 

satanboy

Psychonaut seven
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
98,799
Like your "profound understanding" of things?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
"...THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!! .... A CHILD CAN UNDERSTAND THIS FFS"
A child easily understands the concept of free will.
You don't.
What does that say about your intellect, huh?
FFS

"...Clearly something is not getting through..."
Clearly.
Well holy cow. I was talking this schitt even way back in 2012. :)
We cannot refer to the puppet master in a discussion about freedom of puppets?

Dee..
Nia..
Uhl..

It's not even that river in Egypt ne!
I'm not playing your retarded game.
Um.. no. I literally just put forward what you're doing here and you expect me to think I'll have a conversation with you? Jeez, you're even dumber than I thought.

Go look it up in a dictionary.
Is this not banter?
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,041
Is this not banter?
Oi. Remarking on how consistent I've been since 2012 is not banter, it's relevant :p

Don't worry, seems I've had a bunch of posts deleted too but it doesn't say which. Which doesn't exactly help rectify or discern the issue. No matter, don't really care that much.
 

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,985
Yes the term you prefer. Just because you prefer it does not mean it's the correct term or the correct meaning.

Again the many worlds interpretation is not a deterministic one. It merely states that all states unfold but the "path" taken is still indeterministic. So far the only interpretation of quantum mechanics as I said that makes sense is that it's indeterministic. All other interpretations doesn't hold up to scrutiny against the evidence. Funny how you believe the evidence for evolution is overwhelming yet go against the overwhelming evidence for quantum indeterminism.
The MWI is a deterministic theory for a physical Universe and it explains why a world appears to be indeterministic for human observers.
Source: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-manyworlds/ - It's definitely a deterministic interpretation.

Yes the term you prefer
It's the term accepted by most academics of the subject. No need to poison the water any further.
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,041
I have free will, I just decided I do...
No, you merely fell upon the experience that manifested, or unfolded, as a consequence of reading this thread. It felt like you were deciding when really it was just an inevitable experience you would undergo at this very moment in time :p

At least that's another possibility that is currently equally difficult to prove/disprove as an actual free will event.

The sensation of your locus of control could be lying to you and you wouldn't even know it. This is a possibility determinists would find, or find themselves in a place whereby it seems, very hard to ignore.
 
Last edited:

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
24,100
I did not say causality doesn't occur in a universe with indeterminism. Was it not I who spoke of compatibilism recently? ;)

But in an indeterministic event specifically, i.e. a miracle, there is no measurement or prediction possible. i.e. God would be beyond fate and humans could not predict God's will. Indeterminism, i.e. Techne's electrons are literally unpredictable. There's no chain of preceeding causes to directly influence the next or the chain is broken somewhere.

How is this not getting through?

Think about a line of dominoes and explain the difference between determinism and Indeterminism maybe?
Still missing the point and therefor not understanding the argument. And still with this miracle BS. This is pointless.

"Indeterminism, i.e. Techne's electrons are literally unpredictable."
Can you please clearly explain what you mean by that?
He thinks it's completely random, without a cause, miracle. Even after explaining that indeterminate isn't random or acausal.

Source: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-manyworlds/ - It's definitely a deterministic interpretation.
No you are choosing an interpretation fitting your view. It still does not explain the path taken in a predictable manner as opposed to the indeterministic manner we witness.

It's the term accepted by most academics of the subject. No need to poison the water any further.
Weasel words. Most seem to use indeterminate.
 
Top