Why you don't really have free will

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,990
Still missing the point and therefor not understanding the argument. And still with this miracle BS. This is pointless.


He thinks it's completely random, without a cause, miracle. Even after explaining that indeterminate isn't random or acausal.


No you are choosing an interpretation fitting your view. It still does not explain the path taken in a predictable manner as opposed to the indeterministic manner we witness.


Weasel words. Most seem to use indeterminate.
It doesn't matter whether the universe is determinate OR indeterminate.
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,042
Still missing the point and therefor not understanding the argument. And still with this miracle BS. This is pointless.
He thinks it's completely random, without a cause, miracle. Even after explaining that indeterminate isn't random or acausal.
Huh? Are you trying to say I'm conflating randomness with indeterminism?

If so... wow, just wow. Where have I ever said such a thing? How the heck would randomness be a miracle or divine intervention? Like... how? If you seriously think that low of my intellect... well... look I'm not the smartest cookie but I'm not that low either.

Holy hell. hahaha. This explains things :) Right now it feels like I'm so far ahead of you on this topic that you're wondering if I'm behind :ROFL: Catch up lol
 
Last edited:

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
24,145
It doesn't matter whether the universe is determinate OR indeterminate.
Only in your mind because you've already decided that free will isn't possible.

Huh? Are you trying to say I'm conflating randomness with indeterminism?

If so... wow, just wow. Where have I ever said such a thing? How the heck would randomness be a miracle or divine intervention? Like... how? If you seriously think that low of my intellect... well... look I'm not the smartest cookie but I'm not that low either.

Holy hell. hahaha. This explains things :) Right now it feels like I'm so far ahead of you on this topic that you're wondering if I'm behind :ROFL: Catch up lol
No you're conflating random with indeterminism. There's no such thing as purely random or maybe there is. We see particles going in and out of existence but they have no material effect and are irrelevant. There's only really randomness within determined bounds.

You stated that something just happening non-causally would be akin to a miracle.

@Swa
You might want to watch this:
Do you have a low down? I'm not watching 56 full minutes?
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,042
No you're conflating random with indeterminism. There's no such thing as purely random or maybe there is. We see particles going in and out of existence but they have no material effect and are irrelevant. There's only really randomness within determined bounds.

You stated that something just happening non-causally would be akin to a miracle.
How would you categorize and make sense of a miracle or divine intervention then? Seeing as it isn't indeterminism according to you then I'm curious as to how you'd fit it with randomness or determinism.

Putting God into the scope of hard determinism or randomness would amaze me. But you clearly are going that route one way or another, so I'm ready to hear how this works. I'm genuinely intrigued, perhaps there's a whole different way of thinking I'm about to learn.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
24,145
How would you categorize and make sense of a miracle or divine intervention then? Seeing as it isn't indeterminism according to you then I'm curious as to how you'd fit it with randomness or determinism.

Putting God into the scope of hard determinism or randomness would amaze me. But you clearly are going that route one way or another, so I'm ready to hear how this works. I'm genuinely intrigued, perhaps there's a whole different way of thinking I'm about to learn.
A miracle if an event outside or against the laws of physics. It's not a miracle when physics allow indeterminism but just normal physics.
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,042
A miracle if an event outside or against the laws of physics. It's not a miracle when physics allow indeterminism but just normal physics.
I'm not going to pretend I understood what you just said (I've contorted my mind around it for a minute or two to no avail lol) but for the sake of just accepting it, would you say God is outside the laws of physics or not? In other words science can discover God?
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
24,145
I'm not going to pretend I understood what you just said (I've contorted my mind around it for a minute or two to no avail lol) but for the sake of just accepting it, would you say God is outside the laws of physics or not? In other words science can discover God?
"would you say God is outside the laws of physics or not?" More like beyond the laws of physics and indeed reality itself. From a theistic perspective even the notion of outside of anything is a misnomer when it comes to God.
"In other words science can discover God?" No
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,042
"would you say God is outside the laws of physics or not?" More like beyond the laws of physics and indeed reality itself. From a theistic perspective even the notion of outside of anything is a misnomer when it comes to God.
"In other words science can discover God?" No
I find it impossible to consolidate what you just said with determinism though. To me, if there is no connection between scientific inquiry and God then there is no determinate link (no connecting the dots), it has to be indeterminism (outside, dualist, immaterial control) or at most random (complete disconnect).

Try as I might, I don't think I'm ever going to reach an understanding of your position - at least not without a complete redefining of these terms (I don't see how). But okay, to each their own :)
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
24,145
I find it impossible to consolidate what you just said with determinism though. To me, if there is no connection between scientific inquiry and God then there is no determinate link (no connecting the dots), it has to be indeterminism (outside, dualist, immaterial control) or at most random (complete disconnect).

Try as I might, I don't think I'm ever going to reach an understanding of your position - at least not without a complete redefining of these terms (I don't see how). But okay, to each their own :)
I don't see why you want to consolidate it with determinism. You seem to want to apply arbitrary properties to determinism, indeterminism and randomness which they do not have.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
24,145
That's like saying oxygen and hydrogen gives rise to water. It's a fancy way to avoid the issue that for water to be a physical property you need for oxygen and hydrogen to be physical properties.

Doesn't explain how consciousness can be a real property without it existing on some universal level. Indeed science can't explain any of the fundamental properties of the universe.
 

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,990
That's like saying oxygen and hydrogen gives rise to water. It's a fancy way to avoid the issue that for water to be a physical property you need for oxygen and hydrogen to be physical properties.

Doesn't explain how consciousness can be a real property without it existing on some universal level. Indeed science can't explain any of the fundamental properties of the universe.
Psh, if science can't do it, nothing can. No amount of philosophizing is going to explain any of the fundamental properties of the universe. Ya'll are stuck on what you get from science.
 

Techne

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
12,688
Psh, if science can't do it, nothing can. No amount of philosophizing is going to explain any of the fundamental properties of the universe. Ya'll are stuck on what you get from science.
Is that so? Which scientific experiment are you going to use to establish this fundamental truth?
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,042
That's like saying oxygen and hydrogen gives rise to water. It's a fancy way to avoid the issue that for water to be a physical property you need for oxygen and hydrogen to be physical properties.

Doesn't explain how consciousness can be a real property without it existing on some universal level. Indeed science can't explain any of the fundamental properties of the universe.
If self-awareness is a simple analysis of state, it's not all that difficult :) You have state and then you have analysis, two systems making "You" a thing. "What I am", or "me", is like a variable or multitude of variables derived by the senses. You wouldn't be aware if you had no senses. Why it's a particularly strong sensation or relevant in humans is due to the social component. Self-awareness is useless without social structure. I admit this is all just pure theory on my part. How does one even begin to prove any of this :/ where does one even start :/ Makes logical sense, seems plausible, to me, but that's about all I can offer.

Water is a heavier compound, in liquid state, at room temperature than H and O on their own. I know what you mean, but it doesn't seem analogous to the above.
 
Last edited:

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,990
Is that so? Which scientific experiment are you going to use to establish this fundamental truth?
I think we first need to define what exactly @Swa means when he says, "fundamental properties of the universe". Swa can you define that?
 
Top