Why you don't really have free will

Bobbin

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Your partial pessimism is only partially consistent with materialism. You are not pessimistic enough. It should be total pessimism you are striving for with no hope of ever understanding anything. And you shouldn't project this total pessimism on those that reject materialism.
So I asked you to please share your secret if I'm wrong , thus offering a chance at nullifying the "projection". And I offered an interpretation of the Adam/Eve story that might lend some insight into the struggle I face, and perhaps it even gives a good argument against materialism that you might be able to expand on for me.

Instead, of a hundred different responses you could have chosen, you just decided to "tribalize" and distance me further (hmmm... for about the hundredth time I might add). What a nice person you are, shining example of Christianity and cooperation right there :sneaky:

Thanks for the help /s :laugh:

Well in any event I like the "double-edged sword" thing and will be doing some digging around that by myself.
 
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Bobbin

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From the so called "Father of Existentialism"...


For Kierkegaard, in order to apprehend the absolute, the mind must radically empty itself of objective content. What supports this radical emptying, however, is the desire for the absolute. Kierkegaard names this desire Passion
One can also look at this from the perspective of what the meaning of our existence is. Why suffer what humans have suffered, the pain and despair—what meaning can all of this have? For Kierkegaard, there is no meaning unless passion, the emotions and will of humans, has a divine source.

Passion is closely aligned with faith in Kierkegaard's thought. Faith as a passion is what drives humans to seek reality and truth in a transcendent world, even though everything we can know intellectually speaks against it. To live and die for a belief, to stake everything one has and is in the belief in something that has a higher meaning than anything in the world—this is belief and passion at their highest.
Double-edged sword my friends :)

Would be kinda cool and interesting - in a weird way - if free will actually exists, but only for those who "seek reality and truth in a transcendent world". Like activating that quantum brain of yours :p

i.e. God could become a subjective truth, but never try to portray God as an objective truth - because that itself completely destroys the meaning and passion behind it. And perhaps the same could be said for any religion/passion.
 

Techne

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So I asked you to please share your secret if I'm wrong , thus offering a chance at nullifying the "projection". And I offered an interpretation of the Adam/Eve story that might lend some insight into the struggle I face, and perhaps it even gives a good argument against materialism that you might be able to expand on for me.

Instead, of a hundred different responses you could have chosen, you just decided to "tribalize" and distance me further (hmmm... for about the hundredth time I might add). What a nice person you are, shining example of Christianity and cooperation right there :sneaky:

Thanks for the help /s :laugh:

Well in any event I like the "double-edged sword" thing and will be doing some digging around that by myself.
Shame, it is quite amusing that you feel "tribalized" and distanced after it is pointed out to you that you are merely a pretentious materialist that is unwilling and/or unable to follow the logical consequences of materialism. Oh well, try harder I say. Stop trying to make sense of anything, you can't and nobody else can if materialism is true. It is time to own it if you are a materialist.
 

Swa

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So I asked you to please share your secret if I'm wrong , thus offering a chance at nullifying the "projection". And I offered an interpretation of the Adam/Eve story that might lend some insight into the struggle I face, and perhaps it even gives a good argument against materialism that you might be able to expand on for me.

Instead, of a hundred different responses you could have chosen, you just decided to "tribalize" and distance me further (hmmm... for about the hundredth time I might add). What a nice person you are, shining example of Christianity and cooperation right there :sneaky:

Thanks for the help /s :laugh:

Well in any event I like the "double-edged sword" thing and will be doing some digging around that by myself.
Well it's true. If materialism is true then there is no reason or understanding in anything. Materialism doesn't have agency. You need agency for reason and to do anything towards an end. Otherwise you may just stop philosophising as it won't achieve any understanding.
 

Bobbin

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Shame, it is quite amusing that you feel "tribalized" and distanced after it is pointed out to you that you are merely a pretentious materialist that is unwilling and/or unable to follow the logical consequences of materialism. Oh well, try harder I say. Stop trying to make sense of anything, you can't and nobody else can if materialism is true. It is time to own it if you are a materialist.
Well it's true. If materialism is true then there is no reason or understanding in anything. Materialism doesn't have agency. You need agency for reason and to do anything towards an end. Otherwise you may just stop philosophising as it won't achieve any understanding.
I haven't claimed with certainty or conviction that materialism is true for quite a while now. Isn't it apparent that I'm searching for answers? It's only @Techne that keeps trying to treat me in that box when all I want is an open discussion with a contrary viewpoint.

There is however always the possibility that materialism is actually true and there is no meaning, objectively speaking. That is a somewhat haunting consideration.

I think what might make it seem like I am opposing you guys and defending materialism is that I'm often not trying to make a case materialism, I'm just challenging what I see as poor or unconvincing arguments against it. That's a subtle but important difference. If I could disprove materialism myself I'd be quite happy. I suspect not many people who are convinced of it also like the idea. There's nothing to like about materialism so it's hardly a voluntary position (irony), just one of deep concern.

So, what are your thoughts on the subjective/objective thing I raised in post #1302. Is it worth exploring further? Do you agree? Or does it not relate with your experience whatsoever? Does it even make sense to you with a completely different perspective?
 
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Prawnapple

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Shame, it is quite amusing that you feel "tribalized" and distanced after it is pointed out to you that you are merely a pretentious materialist that is unwilling and/or unable to follow the logical consequences of materialism. Oh well, try harder I say. Stop trying to make sense of anything, you can't and nobody else can if materialism is true. It is time to own it if you are a materialist.
You have yet to provide any concrete evidence that there exists something non-physical.

Well it's true.
According to you?

If materialism is true then there is no reason or understanding in anything.
How convenient.
 

Techne

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I haven't claimed with certainty or conviction that materialism is true for quite a while now. Isn't it apparent that I'm searching for answers? It's only @Techne that keeps trying to treat me in that box when all I want is an open discussion with a contrary viewpoint.

There is however always the possibility that materialism is actually true and there is no meaning, objectively speaking. That is a somewhat haunting consideration.

I think what might make it seem like I am opposing you guys and defending materialism is that I'm often not trying to make a case materialism, I'm just challenging what I see as poor or unconvincing arguments against it. That's a subtle but important difference. If I could disprove materialism myself I'd be quite happy. I suspect not many people who are convinced of it also like the idea. There's nothing to like about materialism so it's hardly a voluntary position (irony), just one of deep concern.

So, what are your thoughts on the subjective/objective thing I raised in post #1302. Is it worth exploring further? Do you agree? Or does it not relate with your experience whatsoever? Does it even make sense to you with a completely different perspective?
Once upon a time praising the virtues of materialism. But now engages in teleological behavior of "searching for answers".
A living contradiction.
Short answer. No, it is not worth exploring further.
 

rietrot

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The conclusion is that freewill is deterministic,

You can't help or pretend that you don't have it.
 
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Bobbin

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Once upon a time praising the virtues of materialism. But now engages in teleological behavior of "searching for answers".
A living contradiction.
Short answer. No, it is not worth exploring further.
When did I ever praise materialism?

I've claimed it seems useful. I've claimed I tend towards it. I've justified those adequately, and it is all a learning process. I don't recall ever praising it though.

There you go again distancing me from your air of superiority. Clearly I am beneath your virtues and level of understanding. What an absolute muppet :sneaky:

Okay well if subjective truth isn't worth exploring, then what's the point of personal meaning? If purpose is absolute it's not personal. We are simply where we are meant to be without question, like an Eckhart Tolle live in the now experience. Do you even understand the absolute schit you imply? Call me contradictory? What a joke!
 
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Techne

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When did I ever praise materialism?

I've claimed it seems useful. I've claimed I tend towards it. I've justified those adequately, and it is all a learning process. I don't recall ever praising it though.

There you go again distancing me from your air of superiority. Clearly I am beneath your virtues and level of understanding. What an absolute muppet :sneaky:
Name calling and a short memory :X3: ... Just read through this this to help you remember.
 

Bobbin

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The conclusion is that freewill is deterministic,

You can't help or pretend that you don't have it.
So the dominoes start falling in line (determinism)... but when it arrives at the inflection point of your mind/will you can selectively change the direction of the dominoes to the external (indeterminism), and then the dominoes proceed once again until they reach your or someone else's will again.

That's what free will essentially is per my understanding. If you claim free will is deterministic then your will is part of the same chain of dominoes and is not altered as it passes through you.

Trying to fit free will with determinism seems paradoxical.

It makes far more sense to either assume there are elements of indeterminism that gives rise to free will in our universe, or that the entire universe is actually indeterministic. And I honestly don't see the resistance to that.

Let me make it very simple. If your purpose is pre-determined... what does that say about your will?
 
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Techne

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Okay well if subjective truth isn't worth exploring, then what's the point of personal meaning? If purpose is absolute it's not personal. We are simply where we are meant to be without question, like an Eckhart Tolle live in the now experience. Do you even understand the absolute schit you imply? Call me contradictory? What a joke!
No, you assume I am implying something and then proceed to go all bonkers based on your flawed assumption.

Being a Materialist and engaging in the teleological act of looking for answers makes you the quintessential walking contradiction. Live with it, own it.
 

Bobbin

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No, you assume I am implying something and then proceed to go all bonkers based on your flawed assumption.

Being a Materialist and engaging in the teleological act of looking for answers makes you the quintessential walking contradiction. Live with it, own it.
Oh is that collectivist labeling coming out again Mr. Narcissist? :) Cute.

You're a muppet. Own it.

And talk about assumptions, I'm the ultimate materialist am I? Then pray tell what am I doing questioning it by trying to find other answers? The fact that you can't even grasp this simple little thing spells muppet to me. :sneaky:
 
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Techne

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Oh is that collectivist labeling coming out again Mr. Narcissist? :) Cute.

You're a muppet. Own it.

And talk about assumptions, I'm the ultimate materialist am I?
No assumptions. Your own waffling aligns with Materialism. You can't let go of it no matter how hard you pretend to question. You will just try and twist everything to suit your default materialist views.

I think you can do better with the name calling though. Pretty weak:confused:
 

Bobbin

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No assumptions. Your own waffling aligns with Materialism.
And I bet you will conveniently never ever be able to justify or explain this statement. Just a veiled name calling itself.

Your arguments are the weakest thing this forum has ever had to bare. Just pure dismissal and contradiction is all you can muster.
 

Techne

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And I bet you will conveniently never ever be able to justify or explain this statement. Just a veiled name calling itself.

Your arguments are the weakest thing this forum has ever had to bare.
Meh, give it time, you can't now all of sudden hide your materialist metaphysics. It will pop up again soon. Much easier than searching through old conversations where you defend dysteleological/materialist views.

And making truth claims now all of a sudden? Bah, hilarious!
 

Bobbin

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Meh, give it time, you can't now all of sudden hide your materialist metaphysics. It will pop up again soon. Much easier than searching through old conversations where you defend dysteleological/materialist views.

And making truth claims now all of a sudden? Bah, hilarious!
Once a materialist, always a materialist ey?
Once a ... always a ... (Notice the language and superiority)
Just wow. I knew it. Narcissism at its finest.

If there's a decent Christian or someone open for discussion around here, you're certainly not it. You're the trash that brings them all down.
 

Techne

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Once a materialist, always a materialist ey?
Once a ... always a ... (Notice the language and superiority)
Just wow. I knew it. Narcissism at its finest.

If there's a decent Christian or someone open for discussion around here, you're certainly not it. You're the trash that brings them all down.
Muppet, trash, narcissist, baaaad Christian... Wow, you are on a roll today with all the insults. What is the matter? Sucks being told to act according to your metaphysics?

Btw, drop the teleological questioning for answers, you are just contradicting your dysteleological metaphysics;).
 
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