Why you don't really have free will

Bobbin

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Muppet, trash, narcissist, baaaad Christian... Wow, you are on a roll today with all the insults. What is the matter? Sucks being told to act according to your metaphysics?

Btw, drop the teleological questioning for answers, you are just contradicting your dysteleological metaphysics;).
You might be able to call me out on insults... but then you go on to justify those insults further (once again) with the rest of your post. I guess some narcissists don't even realize that they are such, or just don't care. Not sure which you are but it's certainly one of those.

Just look at this...
Sucks being told to act according to your metaphysics?
drop the teleological questioning for answers
Just look at it!!

You openly display your bigotry AS WELL AS intolerance for one willing to explore alternatives. And this is your attitude every time you engage with me. You are a ****ing disgusting human being! Enjoy your self gratification you narcissist :sneaky:

Sometimes, just sometimes, insults are warranted. This is one of those times. Own it. Realize what you truly are at this moment. I cease to tolerate uncalled for bullsh!t and let it go unimpeded :cool: If I want answers I don't need people like you telling me otherwise. And seeing as you offer none yourself, and you're just full of negativity about my own questioning, you are an absolute waste of time if not destructive.

Hope you don't treat others this way!
 
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Swa

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I haven't claimed with certainty or conviction that materialism is true for quite a while now. Isn't it apparent that I'm searching for answers? It's only @Techne that keeps trying to treat me in that box when all I want is an open discussion with a contrary viewpoint.

There is however always the possibility that materialism is actually true and there is no meaning, objectively speaking. That is a somewhat haunting consideration.

I think what might make it seem like I am opposing you guys and defending materialism is that I'm often not trying to make a case materialism, I'm just challenging what I see as poor or unconvincing arguments against it. That's a subtle but important difference. If I could disprove materialism myself I'd be quite happy. I suspect not many people who are convinced of it also like the idea. There's nothing to like about materialism so it's hardly a voluntary position (irony), just one of deep concern.

So, what are your thoughts on the subjective/objective thing I raised in post #1302. Is it worth exploring further? Do you agree? Or does it not relate with your experience whatsoever? Does it even make sense to you with a completely different perspective?
You seem confused. On the one hand you hold to materialist views and on the other you're seeking understanding. It can't be both. That's why you should stick to one or the other.

How convenient.
I'm not the one positing materialism.
 

Techne

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You might be able to call me out on insults... but then you go on to justify those insults further (once again) with the rest of your post. I guess some narcissists don't even realize that they are such, or just don't care. Not sure which you are but it's certainly one of those.

Just look at this...


Just look at it!!

You openly display your bigotry AS WELL AS intolerance for one willing to explore alternatives. And this is your attitude every time you engage with me. You are a ****ing disgusting human being! Enjoy your self gratification you narcissist :sneaky:

Sometimes, just sometimes, insults are warranted. This is one of those times. Own it. Realize what you truly are at this moment. I cease to tolerate uncalled for bullsh!t and let it go unimpeded :cool: If I want answers I don't need people like you telling me otherwise. And seeing as you offer none yourself, and you're just full of negativity about my own questioning, you are an absolute waste of time if not destructive.

Hope you don't treat others this way!
So much anger.
You can carry on engaging in teleological behaviour by asking questions and seeking answers all you want. It will just continue to contradict your dysteleological, deterministic metaphysics and make you look like a hypocrite.

You can also choose to be free of dysteleological, deterministic metaphysics and just drop it.

But that will likely result in going through the five stages of grief since that means losing your long held beliefs. Who knows, maybe denying (or pretending to not understand) the indeterministic results from quantum mechanics, lashing out in anger at others with insults, and bargaining by asking questions that might save these long held beliefs are signs of a person in the process losing their long held beliefs associated with dysteleological deterministic metaphysics. If so, hopefully your support structures will guide you through this difficult time.
 

rietrot

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So the dominoes start falling in line (determinism)... but when it arrives at the inflection point of your mind/will you can selectively change the direction of the dominoes to the external (indeterminism), and then the dominoes proceed once again until they reach your or someone else's will again.

That's what free will essentially is per my understanding. If you claim free will is deterministic then your will is part of the same chain of dominoes and is not altered as it passes through you.

Trying to fit free will with determinism seems paradoxical.

It makes far more sense to either assume there are elements of indeterminism that gives rise to free will in our universe, or that the entire universe is actually indeterministic. And I honestly don't see the resistance to that.

Let me make it very simple. If your purpose is pre-determined... what does that say about your will?
No. You don't understand that people are moral actors, free agents. You don't understand what that means, what's the implications of it.

Your purpose isn't predetermined. That is an outdated superstition. The believe that you are fated.
 

Bobbin

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So much anger.
You can carry on engaging in teleological behaviour by asking questions and seeking answers all you want. It will just continue to contradict your dysteleological, deterministic metaphysics and make you look like a hypocrite.

You can also choose to be free of dysteleological, deterministic metaphysics and just drop it.

But that will likely result in going through the five stages of grief since that means losing your long held beliefs. Who knows, maybe denying (or pretending to not understand) the indeterministic results from quantum mechanics, lashing out in anger at others with insults, and bargaining by asking questions that might save these long held beliefs are signs of a person in the process losing their long held beliefs associated with dysteleological deterministic metaphysics. If so, hopefully your support structures will guide you through this difficult time.
Yes the only options are that I'm denying or pretending. The possibility that I literally do not understand or am struggling escapes you, because you constantly insist I'm a willful agent of destruction against your beliefs. **** off. You idiot. You have such a brainwashed perception of me and it's attributable to all the things I've said about you. You continue to demonstrate it every time.

Yes I am angry, what gave that away. But only at you.
 
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Bobbin

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No. You don't understand that people are moral actors, free agents. You don't understand what that means, what's the implications of it.

Your purpose isn't predetermined. That is an outdated superstition. The believe that you are fated.
I'm not denying that people might be free agents, all I'm trying to convey is what I think it takes for that to happen...

Do you have an issue with indeterminism?
 
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Bobbin

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You seem confused. On the one hand you hold to materialist views and on the other you're seeking understanding. It can't be both. That's why you should stick to one or the other
That's exactly why I raised the double edged sword concept. If I choose one I lose something from the other and vice versa.

You can't "objectify" reality and everything in it and still have meaning. And you can't create meaning and then still treat reality as mechanistic for useful interaction. It's the challenge between subjective and objective truth. And a middle ground is contradictory.

And let's say even if any God is an objective truth, you still cannot identify with that God with that frame of mind. Subjectivity is a bitch, basically.

Pretty sure you agree science cannot discover God? If true then I think this is exactly why. Now then, whats the next step from that is my next concern.
 
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Prawnapple

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The conclusion is that freewill is deterministic,

You can't help or pretend that you have it.
FTFY and no, non-free will isn't just deterministic, it's also indeterministic as you're unable to show when something is deterministic or indeterministic. Take for example @Techne 's interpretation of electrons being fired in the Stern-Gerlach experiment being indeterministic, it's only Techne's interpretation of the results, that they are indeed indeterministic. However, as I've pointed out before. It doesn't matter whether deterministic or indeterministic. Until you have a proper litmus test than can distinguish between a deterministic or non-deterministic event, the odds are not in favour of free will.
 

Techne

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Yes the only options are that I'm denying or pretending. The possibility that I literally do not understand or am struggling escapes you, because you constantly insist I'm a willful agent of destruction against your beliefs. **** off. You idiot. You have such a brainwashed perception of me and it's attributable to all the things I've said about you. You continue to demonstrate it every time.

Yes I am angry, what gave that away. But only at you.
Hey, maybe you literally do not understand the Stern-Gerlach experiment and its implications. And you may never ever will. But you will still likely cling to your materialistic determinist and anti-scientific metaphysics while simultaneously engaging in teleological answer seeking. An angry living contradiction indeed.
 

Techne

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FTFY and no, non-free will isn't just deterministic, it's also indeterministic as you're unable to show when something is deterministic or indeterministic. Take for example @Techne 's interpretation of electrons being fired in the Stern-Gerlach experiment being indeterministic, it's only Techne's interpretation of the results, that they are indeed indeterministic. However, as I've pointed out before. It doesn't matter whether deterministic or indeterministic. Until you have a proper litmus test than can distinguish between a deterministic or non-deterministic event, the odds are not in favour of free will.
Sorry, if you are going to claim that you're unable to show when something is deterministic or indeterministic then no-one is going to make any good argument for determinism or indeterminism and thus no good argument for or against the view that free will is true. The only odds that are good is that everyone can only ever be full of nonsense without ever being able to demonstrate anything. A consequence of materialism and a "poisoning the well" tactic.
 

Bobbin

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Sorry, if you are going to claim that you're unable to show when something is deterministic or indeterministic then no-one is going to make any good argument for determinism or indeterminism and thus no good argument for or against the view that free will is true. The only odds that are good is that everyone can only ever be full of nonsense without ever being able to demonstrate anything. A consequence of materialism and a "poisoning the well" tactic.
Full of criticism but no answers. Pot calling kettle black. One of the many things I absolutely despise about you.

All you can say is... "as long as we hold on to our views there's a problem" - and you play it as such a weakness and with such arrogance. But you give forkall perspective of your views or any alternative. You're just here to talk schit, basically.

It's hopeless expecting anything more from you. :sneaky:
 
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Bobbin

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the violent one also despises people, the plot thickens
Yes because saying you deserve a klap for an uncalled for insult equates to committing violence you knob.

I despise assholes. Not all people.
 
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Ponderer

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Full of criticism but no answers. Pot calling kettle black. One of the many things I absolutely despise about you.

All you can say is... "as long as we hold on to our views there's a problem" - and you play it as such a weakness and with such arrogance. But you give forkall perspective of your views or any alternative. You're just here to talk schit, basically.

It's hopeless expecting anything more from you. :sneaky:
"You're just here to talk schit, basically."
That is exactly what you are doing.
You have learned nothing, and refuse to learn anything.
You claim to be open minded, but you are extremely obtuse.
You pretend to be a nice guy looking for answers, but you are not.
You are just here to talk schit.

<edit>
BTW - I pity you, but only to a degree.
 

Bobbin

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"You're just here to talk schit, basically."
That is exactly what you are doing.
You have learned nothing, and refuse to learn anything.
You claim to be open minded, but you are extremely obtuse.
You pretend to be a nice guy looking for answers, but you are not.
You are just here to talk schit.
You also provide no answers and just criticism, so there's nothing to learn. How am I supposed to learn from a bunch of imbeciles who do nothing but criticize. What even are you doing here in the "debates" section?
 

Ponderer

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You also provide no answers and just criticism, so there's nothing to learn. How am I supposed to learn from a bunch of imbeciles who do nothing but criticize. What even are you doing here in the "debates" section?
Have you considered that it might just be you that is an imbecile?
 

Bobbin

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Have you considered that it might just be you that is an imbecile?
So I've provided justifications for my insults. And they've always been on the back of an explicit or veiled unproductive attack on me or my ideas. Can you do the same? I'm waiting...
 
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