Would you kill baby Hitler?

MrsWestcot

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This question got me thinking. Beethoven's father was an abusive drunk. It is well documented that he wanted Beethoven to become a child prodigy à la Mozart so that he could profiteer off the child. To this end he forced Beethoven to practice behind the keyboard for many hours of the day and he would hit, sometimes beat, Beethoven when he made mistakes (reportedly he nearly killed the young Beethoven on two occasions). It is said that after a night of drinking with his friends, he would wake up the young Beethoven in the early hours of the morning to show off his son's piano playing skills in front of his drunken friends and would humiliate and hit the boy when he did not perform to expectation. Despite all of this, Beethoven sought emotional refuge in music and went on to become, in my opinion, the greatest musical genius in the history of mankind.

One could speculate that had Beethoven's father not abused him, he might not have gone on to become the great musician that he was, that those many hours spent behind the keyboard learning music during his young formative years might have made the difference between him subsequently becoming the great Ludwig van Beethoven as opposed to merely a talented pianist or moderately good composer. On the one hand, Beethoven's father was a horrible man and what he did was wrong, on the other hand, it may have resulted in a greater good.
A lot of great works of arts were born from tragedy, you will find this in music, literature and other art forms. Adversity and strive is a great lubricant for the creative machine. Yet, it does not justify the means. It rather shows the resilience of the human spirit. Someone once told me that without contradiction there can be no life. Without the truly ugly how can one identify the truly glorious. There is a lot to be said for that.

And you know the opposite could have happened, even with all that practice and force he could have ended up only a mediocre artist. But, luckily for him he was born with talent. Talent, that could just have easily, if not more easily have been developed in a more nurturing environment.

I think without the difficulties he faced in life, he would still have been a musical genius, it was only that his difficulties gave him the kind of depth in his music, the likes of which I have not quite found in the works of any other composer.
 

Lupus

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A lot of great works of arts were born from tragedy, you will find this in music, literature and other art forms. Adversity and strive is a great lubricant for the creative machine. Yet, it does not justify the means. It rather shows the resilience of the human spirit. Someone once told me that without contradiction there can be no life. Without the truly ugly how can one identify the truly glorious. There is a lot to be said for that.

And you know the opposite could have happened, even with all that practice and force he could have ended up only a mediocre artist. But, luckily for him he was born with talent. Talent, that could just have easily, if not more easily have been developed in a more nurturing environment.

I think without the difficulties he faced in life, he would still have been a musical genius, it was only that his difficulties gave him the kind of depth in his music, the likes of which I have not quite found in the works of any other composer.
He might have lived longer, not had any of the disabilities he suffered through, we could've had Beethoven music for another 30 years.
 

MrsWestcot

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He might have lived longer, not had any of the disabilities he suffered through, we could've had Beethoven music for another 30 years.
True dat. It is thought that his deafness was due to the abuse he suffered. But his hardships certainly added texture to his music. None the less.
 

Frequent visitor

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I got it from Wikipedia
Do you mean that it was a 'cut and paste' job to account for the separation, and for the attribution of the responsibility, rather than a deliberate decision on your part? Just curious, rather than critical: my upbringing was very much anti Hitler. And I am not in any way a 'holocaust denier': I have met too many people who saw then evidence with their own eyes to be in that camp. It is the perspective, perhaps the relative importance, that aroused my interest.
 

Lupus

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True dat. It is thought that his deafness was due to the abuse he suffered. But his hardships certainly added texture to his music. None the less.
Might have been richer had he grown in a more loving environment, we will never know though. But he definitely has a certain flair that even Mozart doesn't.
 

eg2505

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almost sounds like the plot of the original C&C red alert, where Einstein "eliminates" Hitler after he leaves prison after his coup,
problem is what happens afterwards, the Soviets conquer Germany and roll unchecked across Europe almost,
until our favorite "bad" guy, Kane kills Stalin and his assistant in cold blood,

so I guess something similar would have happened, if Hitler was killed, just allow something/someone worse to take over 1930's Germany.
so who knows really?
 

Solarion

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NO I would not. You can not mess with the course of fate.

The mere fact that you ask this question means that you have already taken on a burden by proxy. Put this out of your mind.

Hitler was in his youth filled with promise. He was born into a family struggling to make ends meat with both his parents having to make compromises to feed their kids. He was just an average kid and even his art work was not that great. He pretty much was not going anywhere in life and his teachers told him he would never amount to anything.

Nobody could foresee the impact the trenches would have on him. If I could go back in time to those trenches I would befriend him and try to be an adviser, a much better one than those fanatical idiots that surrounded him after the warn intent on blaming the failures of the war on conspiracy theories of Jews and Russians and the Orthodox vs Papal Catholic Church.

No matter what you think, the trenches left a deep lasting impression on Adolph. This was the foundation for his hatred and his major failure was that he fostered, nurtured and grew this hatred into something that would eventually end in tragedy.
 
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ekske1

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This baby grows up to be responsible for the deaths of Around 6 million Jews; using broadest definition, 17 million victims overall.

The question is would you kill baby Hitler to save the lives of millions of people?
That like killing baby mandela?
 

ekske1

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or what about baby muhammad or baby jesus?

Quite a few religious [miss]interpretations to avoid here.
 

Zoomzoom

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Absolutely not. There is no justification for taking a life and if I said 'yes' then what makes me any different from the man Baby Hitler became? He also thought his philosophy justified murder and it never ever does. Even with the benefit of hindsight.

However, in this theoretical whatif scenario, I would try my utmost to change his destiny. Who knows what difference a little love, a little kindness, different opportunities, a more moderating influence would have had on his ideas and self-esteem. Armed with the knowledge we have today on the negative influences in his life, even just a few small changes could effect a vastly different outcome.
 

Polymathic

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or what about baby muhammad or baby jesus?

Quite a few religious [miss]interpretations to avoid here.
There's no evidence a Jesus that was described in the Bible ever existed . You'd probably be disappointed if you made all the way back and discover you have no target. I think the person to target is the writer of the new testimant
 

ekske1

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There's no evidence a Jesus that was described in the Bible ever existed . You'd probably be disappointed if you mad the way all the way back and discover you have no target. I think the person to target is the writer of the new testimant
' if you mad the way all the way back ' ?
 

ekske1

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Doesn't take much to see the OP is trying to create a morale dilemma by killing a dependent and helpless figure with an intent to towards a loaded decision.

So if we are going to play that game then we might as well throw in other figures like mandela, baby jesus or jan van riebeeck.

Kill the religious figurehead and stop many crimes against humanity in name of some religion?
Kill mandela and stop the killings, terrorist goverment and now zuma fallout?
Kill jan v riebeeck and stop apartheid?

Hardly a 'fair' and 'reasonable' decision as no one controls all possible inputs and outcomes. For all we know killing poor old jan v riebeeck makes south africa far worse.

So what is the point about speculative opinion other than some sort of basic reasoning exercise?
 

Polymathic

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Doesn't take much to see the OP is trying to create a morale dilemma by killing a dependent and helpless figure with an intent to towards a loaded decision.

So if we are going to play that game then we might as well throw in other figures like mandela, baby jesus or jan van riebeeck.

Kill the religious figurehead and stop many crimes against humanity in name of some religion?
Kill mandela and stop the killings, terrorist goverment and now zuma fallout?
Kill jan v riebeeck and stop apartheid?

Hardly a 'fair' and 'reasonable' decision as no one controls all possible inputs and outcomes. For all we know killing poor old jan v riebeeck makes south africa far worse.

So what is the point about speculative opinion other than some sort of basic reasoning exercise?
The real question is would you kill a baby to save a million + lives
 

Nick333

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The real question is would you kill a baby to save a million + lives
No, it's really do you think a baby should be killed to save a million + lives. Do you think people are actually considering killing a baby, or whether they could actually kill anyone much less a baby?

It's an entirety pointless question, because there is no real world, analogue for this scenario.
 

Polymathic

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No, it's really do you think a baby should be killed to save a million + lives. Do you think people are actually considering killing a baby, or whether they could actually kill anyone much less a baby?

It's an entirety pointless question, because there is no real world, analogue for this scenario.
It's a thought experiment to see whether a person believes whether or not the ends justify the means.
 
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