You're not Christian you are Pagan

Aqua_lung

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#41
I myself admitted that my comparisons were lame, made and to show you something, given enough time though I'm sure somebody could make my claims seem valid .

However your "claims" are not your claims either but are in fact claims made by others.

But lets look at something here.

This is a link to Isis holding her son: http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/in-thefootsteps-bibletrans/Graphics 2/isis-with-child01.jpg

This is a link to an image of "The Madonna": http://www.picturesofjesus4you.com/images/madonna_of_the_lillies_bouguereau_l.jpg or even this one which you would say is more like the isis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fouquet_Madonna.jpg

Now here are two other pictures of Angelina holding her kids (1) like the Madonna, and (2) like the Isis Figure:
1)http://img.timeinc.net/people/i/2006/features/magstories/060612/angelina_jolie2.jpg
2)http://newyorkmetro.com/news/media/pittjolie060612_4_560.jpg

So, am I right to assume then that Angelina is trying to show the world that she is the Virgin Mary, or maybe even in fact Isis? Or maybe IS THEM BOTH

The comparison between Isis and the Virgin Mary is laughable, The images of Mary that are in existance today date from around the 1200-1600 A.D... all at least 1000 years after she passed away. Painted by people like Da Vince which is the one everyone uses to compare to Isis.. How can one mans interpretation of how he sees somebody in his painting suddenly become the bases for the claim that the Virgin Mary is made to look like Isis..

The other claims you have stated.. I've already shown above how they can be wrong
I get your point, but the similarities I pointed out or more than just coincidence

Isis outside Egypt

The cult of Isis rose to prominence in the Hellenistic world, beginning in the last centuries BC, until it was eventually banned by the Christians in the 6th century. Despite the Isis mystery cult's growing popularity, there is evidence to suggest that the Isis mysteries were not altogether welcomed by the ruling classes in Rome. Her rites were considered by the princeps Augustus to be "pornographic" and capable of destroying the Roman moral fibre.

Tacitus writes that after Julius Caesar's assassination, a temple in honour of Isis had been decreed; Augustus suspended this, and tried to turn Romans back to the Roman gods who were closely associated with the state. Eventually the Roman emperor Caligula abandoned the Augustan wariness towards oriental cults, and it was in his reign that the Isiac festival was established in Rome. According to Josephus, Caligula himself donned female garb and took part in the mysteries he instituted, and Isis acquired in the Hellenistic age a "new rank as a leading goddess of the Mediterranean world."

Roman perspectives on cult were syncretic, seeing in a new deity merely local aspects of a familiar one. For many Romans, Egyptian Isis was an aspect of Phrygian Cybele, whose orgiastic rites were long naturalized at Rome, indeed she was known as Isis of Ten Thousand Names.

Among these names of Roman Isis, Queen of Heaven is outstanding for its long and continuous history. Herodotus identified Isis with the Greek and Roman goddesses of agriculture, Demeter and Ceres. In Yorùbá mythology, Isis became Yemaya. In later years, Isis also had temples throughout Europe, Africa, and Asia, and as far away as the British Isles, where there was a temple to Isis on the River Thames by Southwark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis
 
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#42
MITHRAISM

“Mithraism was an ancient mystery religion prominent from the 1st century BC to the 5th century AD”

“Mithraism apparently originated in the Eastern Mediterranean around the first or second centuries BC”

“Roman worship of Mithras began sometime during the early Roman empire, perhaps during the late first century of the Common Era (hereafter CE), and flourished from the second through the fourth century BCE. during which it came under the influence of Greek and Roman mythologies. The Mithraic cult maintained secrecy. Its teaching were only revealed to initiates.”

My observation from the above concerning Mithraism
-not a pagan god originating from the Roman Empire as claimed by ROB33 100BCE
-a pagan god introduced by the Roman Empire to counter the Christian faith hoping to strengthen the Empire via false teachings…100BCE to 500BCE
-a definite action by satan to pervert the church original doctrine with false teachings…
 

Aqua_lung

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#43
My observation from the above concerning Mithraism
-not a pagan god originating from the Roman Empire as claimed by ROB33 100BCE
I never said it originated from the Roman Empire,
I quoted the similarities, which existed before Christianity

I read the Wikipedia article already thanks
 
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#44
Not Wiki Mad

I never said it originated from the Roman Empire,
I quoted the similarities, which existed before Christianity

I read the Wikipedia article already thanks
Yes in your first post you indeed referred to similarities, but in the 6th post you were so arrogant to refer to falsifications...

Quote:

“Basically most of what Christians hold sacred are false,
and the sacred texts have also been falsified to enrich Roman interests”

A proper explanation and it is clear that the Roman Empire exploited christianity once they could not get rid of it via persecution...
 

Aqua_lung

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#45
Yes in your first post you indeed referred to similarities, but in the 6th post you were so arrogant to refer to falsifications...

Quote:

“Basically most of what Christians hold sacred are false,
and the sacred texts have also been falsified to enrich Roman interests”

A proper explanation and it is clear that the Roman Empire exploited christianity once they could not get rid of it via persecution...
I apologize if I was arrogant, but that's how I see it...
But you're correct my post was offensive, you're explanation is nicer,
If you're offended I do apologize

Edit: Another interesting find on Mithra
Italy: The Basilica of San Clemente in Rome has a preserved mithraeum with the altarpiece still intact in the excavations under the modern church.
 
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#46
I apologize if I was arrogant, but that's how I see it...
But you're correct my post was offensive, you're explanation is nicer,
If you're offended I do apologize

Edit: Another interesting find on Mithra
No sir I am not offended as christian i do not take offense to commentary. My own attitude i will admit have been way over the top in some of the threads.
Not use to sit down and give my faith that stiff examination but it worked in my favour.
It strengthened my faith, believe in god and straightened out the internet as a unreliable source for information. Verification of writers etc. is so important.

Did not really see you as arrogant... also apologise for the remark...
 

Kalvaer

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#47
Rob I can understand how Isis could be seen to be Mary as explained above, though let me put somethings into perspective if I may as well, especially with Mithraism since it became a popular religion during the rise of Christianity.

Remember though that Christianity is not entirely a "new" religion. Many.. myself included believe it is a continuation of the Jewish Religion. A Religion that goes back to the times of the ancient egyptians around 1450 - 1410 B.C, but remember this was when the first writtings took place (possible after the art of writing and paper was learnt from the egyptians but it was around many years before that)

Christianity and Judaism both believe in a prophet called Isaiah who was born in about 765BC. Now in the book of Isaiah in the "Bible", it is written that Isaiah while alive prophesised in chapter 7:14 the following:

The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
This was said almost 740 years before the birth of Jesus. Now the major difference between Christianity and Judaism is that Christians Believe that Jesus was this person that Isaiah spoke about.. The Jews however, while they do not dispute his existance, do not believe that he was "Immanuel" and are still waiting for him to come.

So the Christian faith goes back much further than 2000 years ago.. which is why the Christian bible is made up of two parts, The Old Testiment being the Jewish Bible (Torah), and the New Testiment being works written after Jesus.

Now I'm sure you know all this already and might be asking why I'm going on about this. The point is Mary was not a central figure in the Church until MUCH MUCH later. While Jesus tried to tell people that women where equal to man (remember back then women had little to no rights at all).

Now from what was explained to me by my Priest (who is a very high up Theologian in the Catholic Church and you can understand why I wont put his name down on the forums, just as we sit being alias'). The Catholic Church realised many years later that Women were still not getting this respect that they deserved, and had to somehow change this view amongst the populus.

This was done by making the Virgin Mary a central figure in the Church and recognising her as an important part of the life of Jesus and giving her a Higher status. Hence the "Hail Mary" in the Catholic Church and many other figures and paintings done to make people realise that women are equal to men. The Jews for example didn't believe this and is why the rabbi may still not preach unless there are enough men in the church. I believe its called a minion of men (might have changed in recent years.. not 100% sure). Luther and Calvin didn't believe this, and is why it is only Catholics who really remember Mary as they do with things such as the "Hail Mary" (hehe In a way Women of today can thank Jesus and the Catholic Church for the freedom they have now in what was previously a male dominated world)

My point is that Mary was not as important back then during the time of Isis, and only become so many years later, and besides that. Another reason why I cant believe the story of Isis and Mary. Also Christianity.. was around long before Isis ever came into being.
 

noxibox

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#48
Is this the same Catholic church that is entirely male-dominated in all positions of power?

Their opposition to contraception is also typical of male-dominated institutions. Whatever they may use as their excuse.
 

Kalvaer

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#49
I remember something about why men are in positions of "power" as you put it.. But to be honest I cant think of it now. I will however check up for you and and let him know, The whole world though is still male dominated, It the same why there have only been 39 female heads of state. All in small countries and never in a large country, Dont blame the church though for something that is world wide problem.

However it still doesn't dispute the above

As to contraception, It has nothing at all to do with a male dominated insitute. The Catholics believe that it is an unnatural thing to stop the creation of life itself, something which is wonderful thing.
There are however also many in the Catholic Church that dont agree to this, Times change and everyone hates change, Religion is not immune in this regard. Things take time..

However I must say I dont know what the above has to do with the current discussion, Valid as the questions may be?
 
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#50
Google IS to blame for all of this.
As to his name.. I think it was Yeshua or Yahweh if I remember right, The word "Jesus" is actually a mis-transliteration of a Greek mis-transliteration
Like you said the prophet Isaiah prophesised that He would be born as the saviour and be called Immanuel. His followers were most likely the ones who called Him Yeshua meaning "born of a virgin". I don't see it as a mis-transliteration but more like a deliberate change. Sentences are translated to convey meaning but as you can see it would be awkward with names and to transliterate it would result in a name that sounds foreign. So translators decide on a new name that sounds similar but is more easily pronounced than the original. The name Yahweh is a variation on YHWH which is the hebrew for the name that God gave Himself in the original hebrew Bible. It can be pronounced in about 10 different ways one of which is Jehovah from where you get your Jehovah's Witnesses. I always write YHWH so people can pronounce it the way they like.
I posted all the source links already, I suggest you RTFA
I think he meant the real source instead of just people who read it somewhere and decided to repeat it or even people who are just repeating who is repeating what is repeated.
Yes the traditions where merged into Christianity, but they lied about the meanings, claiming them to be Christian when they're not
There are some pagan traditions like for instance the christmas tree but no one really lied about them. The traditions are not part of the faith and is nowhere claimed to be. Traditions and religion go hand in hand but are not the same.

The most damaging is the recent tradition of Santa Clause which is a very clever acronym for Satan. Even christian parents think its okay to teach this false dogma to their children. What happens in the end is that a childs first believe system is shattered when they find out it was mommy and daddy who gave the presents and then the parents ask why their children don't want to believe them about God. :(
 

Kalvaer

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#51
I don't see it as a mis-transliteration but more like a deliberate change. Sentences are translated to convey meaning but as you can see it would be awkward with names and to transliterate it would result in a name that sounds foreign. So translators decide on a new name that sounds similar but is more easily pronounced than the original. The name Yahweh is a variation on YHWH which is the hebrew for the name that God gave Himself in the original hebrew Bible. It can be pronounced in about 10 different ways one of which is Jehovah from where you get your Jehovah's Witnesses. I always write YHWH so people can pronounce it the way they like.
What I meat with regards to the mis-translation was to what was said about Jesus wasn't his real name, meaning in the translation into english it became something else. Pretty much the same way in that my name when pronounced in Russian becomes different to English or even Afrikaans.

To quote from another site again:

Yeshua is a Hebrew name which has been transliterated into Greek as Iesous (IhsouV: pronounced "ee-ay-SUS"). The English "Jesus" comes from the Latin transliteration of the Greek name into the Latin Iesus. Now Greek has no "y" sound, but the Latin "i" is both an "i" and a "j" (i.e., it can have a consonantal force in front of other vowels), the latter of which is properly pronounced like the English "y" (which explains the German Jesu, "YAY-su")That is why we spell Jesus as we do, taking it straight from Latin, but we pronounce the name with a soft "j" sound because that is what we do in English with the consonantal "j".
 

nthdimension

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#52
The Catholic Church realised many years later that Women were still not getting this respect that they deserved, and had to somehow change this view amongst the populus.

Hence the "Hail Mary" in the Catholic Church and many other figures and paintings done to make people realise that women are equal to men.
The whole world though is still male dominated, It the same why there have only been 39 female heads of state. All in small countries and never in a large country, Dont blame the church though for something that is world wide problem.
It definitely looks like the church made little, probably no, real effort to change the status of women. This was an organisation that controlled the heads of state of numerous countries. I also question whether the claims about Mary amount to anything more than tokenism, or historical revision on the part of the church.
 

Kalvaer

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#53
If you think little or no change has been made at all.. Do some research about how women lived in 900BC or even 900AD, Much has changed since then.

My point as well though as more than the part you cut and pasted. You cant blame the church for something and put all the blame on its shoulders alone, They might be big shoulders, but there are others to blame as well
 
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nthdimension

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#54
All I'd like to see is some actual evidence that the Catholic church was at the forefront of the fight for women's rights. It's a valid point that an organisation with that much power should have made more of a difference. Especially if they want to claim they were promoting the idea of treating women as equals.

Who was responsible for the improvements from 900BCE until the Catholic church appeared?
 
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#55
Yes I was quite surprised to find that due to the Latin-English alphabet used that is not the correct pronunciation of his name...

Reading the jewish author documentary he however found it acceptable and emphasized that the NAME is good and should not split hairs about it and become real snobs like the gnostic/atheist crowd...
 

Kalvaer

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#57
Reading the jewish author documentary he however found it acceptable and emphasized that the NAME is good and should not split hairs about it and become real snobs like the gnostic/atheist crowd...
With that I agree.. at least about the part with spliting hairs. No matter what I am called or how my name is pronounced it does not change who I am and what I stand for. Of course its still interesting to understand where it all comes from
 
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#58
With that I agree.. at least about the part with spliting hairs. No matter what I am called or how my name is pronounced it does not change who I am and what I stand for. Of course its still interesting to understand where it all comes from
Yes, for me it was news... and something to keep in mind in future.
It actually strengthens your faith, that is my view...
In the same way you can fight about the sabbath and 25/12, it just does not make sense, we are under grace like paul says ain't that wonderful?...
 
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#59
Who was responsible for the improvements from 900BCE until the Catholic church appeared?
I don't think there were any noticable improvements. Even Jewish woman today have practically no say and have to use their husbands to get anything done. There are many other religions that are still like this today.
 

Aqua_lung

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#60
I don't think there were any noticable improvements. Even Jewish woman today have practically no say and have to use their husbands to get anything done. There are many other religions that are still like this today.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Ancient Egyptians where way ahead...
Ancient Egyptian Female Pharaohs
MERYT-NEITH (1st Dynasty c.3000 BC)
Meryt-Neith is believed to have ruled at the start of the dynastic period, possibly the third ruler of the dynasty, and is known principally for her funerary monuments. Her reign lasted less than three years. Her name means 'Beloved of the Goddess Neith' and she has a funerary monument and solar boat at Sakkara. This boat would enable her spirit to travel to the Afterlife, a honour reserved only for a king. She also has another funerary tomb at Abydos. Both these tombs are surrounded by over fifty graves of attendants and servants, demonstrating that she was buried with the power of a king and was full honours of a powerful ruler.



NITOCRIS (6th Dynasty 2148-44 BC)
Nitocris came to the throne during much dispute, when there was no apparent male heir. But she has become entangled with romantic legend and myth, so much so, that very little true facts are known about her reign. She would be remembered later in Egyptian history as 'The bravest and most beautiful woman of her time'. No structures were commissioned by her and she is left unmentioned in many Egyptian records. She is, however, referred to in the Turin King-list, by the Greek traveller Herodotos who wrote that she caused the deaths of hundreds of Egyptians in revenge for the killing of her brother, the king. This was done by inviting all those guilt of his murder to a banquet then, when the party was in full swing, she opened flood gates and let the River Nile in on them, drowning them all. According to legend she then flung herself into a room of ashes to escape her punishment. Again, her reign lasted less than three years.



SOBEKNOFRU (Neferusobek) (12th Dynasty ?1767-1759 BC)
Sobeknofru ruled only briefly at a time of civil unrest, followed by a period of anarchy. Monuments which record the troubled times have allowed Egyptologist to piece together her reign. Manetho states she was probably the sister of Ammenemes, whom she succeeded and he tells us that her reign lasted for 3 years and 10 months. She is mentioned in the Turin 'List of Kings' and is mentioned at Karnak Temple (Luxor) and Saqqara (near Cairo). Portraits show her wearing the royal head cloth and kilt over her female attire, a way of declaring that she is as fit to rule as any man.



HATSHEPSUT (18th Dynasty c.1473-1458 BC)
Hatshepsut was the daughter of Thutmose I. When Thutmose died his son Thutmose II succeeded him and, as was the custom, he married his stepsister, Hatshepsut. When Thutmose II also died, around 1479 BC, his son Thutmose III became Pharaoh. However as the new pharaoh was a minor, Hatshepsut stepped in as his regent. Thutmose III and Hatshepsut ruled together until 1473 BC, when she eventually appointed herself Pharaoh. She used a number of strategies to legitimate her role, including the claim that the god Amun-Ra had visited her mother while she was pregnant, which made her a divine child. Hatshepsut readily assumed traditional kingly regalia, including several male attributes such as; a fake beard, male clothing, as well as having herself drawn and treated like a man. During her fifteen year reign she mounted at least one military campaign and initiated a number of impressive building projects, including her superb funerary temple at Deir el-Bahari. One major achievement, the expedition to the Land of Punt, is shown on the temple walls. Believed to be located near the Red Sea, is shows ebony, ivory, myrrh saplings, animal skins, gold, perfumes and exotic animals etc, being brought back from this expedition. Another remarkable achievement, also chronicled through illustration shows two huge granite obelisks being transported on the River Nile from Aswan to the Temple of Karnak. Hatshepsut was a powerful and admirable woman who brought great stability to Egypt, however she mysteriously disappears around 1458 BC, when Thutmose III regained his title as Pharaoh. It is thought he despised Hatshepsut for keeping him from the throne and ordered all reference to her be wiped from Egyptian history. Hatshepsut's mummy has never been found and her name and images were nearly lost forever.



NEFERTITI (18th Dynasty c.1336 BC)
Nefertiti was the beautiful wife of Pharaoh Akhenaton who was also known as Amenophis IV and the Heritic king. They couple reigned for 17 years toward the end of the so-called Amarna period. A famous sculptured head of Nefertiti was found at Amarna, which showed her remarkable beauty. (Click here to see the bust) She was actively involved in her husband's revolutionary policies and is often shown wearing kingly regalia and officiating at his side. It is believed that after the death of Akhenaten she ruled independently around 1336 BC. Although this is by no means certain and I have only inlcuded her name here as a possible female pharaoh, not a certainty.



TWOSRET (Tausert) (19th Dynasty c.1187-1185 BC)
As with Nitocris and Sobeknofru above, Twosret's reign was during troubled times and lasted less than three years. She was the last Pharaoh of the 19th dynasty. Tausert was the very beloved wife of Seti II even though she was not his first wife and it is believed that it was Seti II who ordered her tomb to be built in the Valley of the Kings; an honour given to very few queens. Again the evidence is sketchy, however the general consensus is that, upon the death of her husband Queen Twosret became co-regent with the king's young son, (Ramesses-Siptah), by another of his wives, and then after his death (approximately six years later) ascended to the throne herself, proclaiming herself Pharaoh.



CLEOPATRA (c 51 BC)
It was over one thousand years after Twosret, during the Ptolemaic period, that Cleopatra reigned as Pharaoh. However, as the Ptolemaic kings were essentially Greek invaders, Cleopatra, unlike those mentioned above, was not of true Egyptian lineage. Descended from Macedonians, who had ruled Egypt ever since the death of Alexander the Great, some 250 years earlier, Cleopatra VII was born to Ptolemy XII in 69 B.C. She came to the throne when she was just 17 year old in 51 B.C. It's thought that she ruled jointly with her father, then after he died, with her younger brother, Ptolemy XIII. It is said that Cleopatra captivated Julius Caesar (Roman) when he came to Alexandria and in order to assume sole power over Egypt she asked for Julius Caesar's help, which he willingly gave. However their relationship was doomed and when her liaison with Mark Anthony, another powerful roman, also ended disastrously, Cleopatra, also known as the "Queen of the Nile." famously committed suicide in 30 BC. Not only was Cleopatra the last female to be called pharaoh, her demise also brought to an end 3,000 years of dynastic rule.



GENERAL COMMENTS
Almost certainly, these female Pharaohs were all of royal blood and were at one time queen-consort to their husbands. It is also believed that most of them did not produce heirs and therefore, upon the death of their husbands/brothers/fathers, they ascended to the throne.

Being a royal woman in Ancient Egypt obviously did not exclude you from the throne, unlike the vast majority of kingdoms at that time. Women in Ancient Egypt had great advantages over their contemporaries in other cultures, such as Mesopotamia and Greece. Egyptian women were allowed to own property and hold official positions. Women could also inherit their wealth and take any disputes to court and defend their legal rights. As Heroditus, a famous Greek historian pointed out, much to his horror, that Egyptian women were free to move about in public, unlike her Greece counterpart who were confined to her home. However, it is general regarded that if a woman did become pharaoh it was most likely because she had the backing of some very influential men upon whom she relied to help her maintain power.
http://www.ancientnile.co.uk/pharaohs-women.php



I think he meant the real source instead of just people who read it somewhere and decided to repeat it or even people who are just repeating who is repeating what is repeated.
If you scroll down to the bottom of the Wikipedia page/s you'll find the source references, some references are from books that you'll need to read at your local library, so if you dispute the article you can read the source yourself
 
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