Zionists say SA hypocritical

ghoti

Karmic Sangoma
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THE SA Zionist Federation yesterday described as biased a statement by the Foreign Affairs Department accusing Israel of being in violation of international laws and the Geneva convention.

On Wednesday, Foreign Affairs Deputy Minister Aziz Pahad made said the killing of 19 Palestinians took the Mideast conflict to “another level of inhumanity”.

The Federation responded by accusing the government of hypocrisy.

“The government continues in its hypocritical role ... It fails to acknowledge that Israel acted in response to completely unprovoked attacks on innocent civilians,” said federation spokesperson Avrom Krengel.

“They also ignore the carnage and bloodshed in other areas of the world. — Sapa
http://www.dispatch.co.za/2006/11/10/SouthAfrica/abzion.html

I will have to agree with the zionists. Our MUSLIM Foreign Affairs Department idiot seems intent on pulling us in on this lame fight. Its amazing that he does not complain about the thousands of human rights abuses in Iran or Syria, but happily attacks Israel on its policies.

You see what happens when religion and government get together? We get involved in a fight thats not ours and lame.
 

nthdimension

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I'll have to disagree. The attacks on Israel have killed and injured very few people. The Israelis just slaughtered 18 people. They have a history of collective punishment.

It is right to to point fingers at Israel. They pretend to be better than they are.

The question is what is wrong with Israeli special forces? If they are dealing with a small band firing small rockets into their country, then send in an elite group to find and kill those individuals. You do not respond by bombing civilian areas.

If a group of fanatics were to fire rockets into a neighbouring country would you be quite happy with that country responding by bombing Johannesburg?
 

Nick333

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Israel is trying to confuse the issue, which is actually wether their actions against Palestinians were justified and not wether or not the South African government is entitled to offer their oppinion.
 

kilo39

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The atrocities of the Isaeli goverment are an abomination on the world, hopefully the New American Government will reign them in and be less likely to sell them DU and the makings of sarin.
 

SuperAntMD

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I'll have to disagree. The attacks on Israel have killed and injured very few people. The Israelis just slaughtered 18 people. They have a history of collective punishment.

It is right to to point fingers at Israel. They pretend to be better than they are.
So as long as they only kill "a few people" terrorist attacks are ok? Im sure the intentions of the Palestinian terrorists involved were to kill or maim as many people as possible, but since they're to inept to achieve that, then its not an outrage?

The question is what is wrong with Israeli special forces? If they are dealing with a small band firing small rockets into their country, then send in an elite group to find and kill those individuals. You do not respond by bombing civilian areas.

If a group of fanatics were to fire rockets into a neighbouring country would you be quite happy with that country responding by bombing Johannesburg?
Do you know who the Palestinian gvt is? Ever heard of Hamas? These people voted terrorists into government, they refuse to recognise Israel. Now don't get me wrong, im not for even a second saying all Palestinians are terrorists, but you have to realise that this is more then "a small band" it is a large diverse group of militias, or for the most part have the peoples support. And they fire their rockets from these civilian areas.
 

nivek

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while on topic, they are 100% right in saying the SA' government is hypocritical..

They send roses and chocolates to Mugabe, who's responsible for the slaughter, rape, and starvation of his country, yet they feel they can comment on something on a completely different continent

nice one
its a good thing no one takes south africa or our smurfs in government seriously
 

nivek

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Israel is trying to confuse the issue, which is actually wether their actions against Palestinians were justified and not wether or not the South African government is entitled to offer their oppinion.
Israel isnt trying to confuse anyone.. They dont care what the SA' government has to say, we are irrelavent on this planet :)

Its the SA Zionist Federation that issued the justified statement...

SA never has anything to say about Sudan or Somalia, or even Zimbabwe.. Hell, we welcome Mugabe with open arms, give him treatment at our hospitals.. All because he was part of the struggle.
 

nivek

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As Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has stated:

Israel left Gaza in order to give the Palestinians an opportunity to control terrorism and develop their own lives. Unfortunately, this has not happened. Israel is faced with constant attack by the Palestinian terror organizations, in the form of relentless firing of Qassam rockets at Israeli population centers. Israel has no desire to harm innocent people, but only to defend its citizens. Unfortunately, in the course of battle, regrettable incidents such as that which occurred this morning do happen.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"There is a major difference in values between Israeli forces and the Palestinian terrorists who are operating from within Beit Hanoun. While Israel does not intentionally set out to harm innocent civilians, those who continue to launch Qassams fully intend to cause the maximum amount of death and destruction irrespective of the effectiveness or otherwise of these missiles.

The media is unlikely to acknowledge this difference in values, as demonstrated by the evacuation of Palestinians injured in Beit Hanoun to an Israeli hospital for treatment. "

"Qassams continued to fall even after the withdrawal of IDF forces from Gaza on Tuesday, including a strike on a school in Ashkelon, which was thankfully empty at the time but could easily have led to massive loss of life."

Yup, firing rockets at Israeli schools, Hamas are definately holding a moral high ground
 

noxibox

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You can't get around the fact that Israel's responses have been desperate and excessive. They're desperate to show how tough they are and in the process are engaging in collective punishment. Their response makes them no better than the handful of terrorists firing rockets at them. It actually makes them worse because they are pretending they're better than the terrorists when they are just terrorists themselves.

Most likely the band of terrorists who are carrying out these attacks on Israel have done so for the express purpose of getting Israel to respond with excessive force so that they can re-ignite the conflict. Israel is playing straight into their hands again. Every time Israel bombs civilians to assassinate one or two terrorists they claim they didn't intend to harm civilians. Well if you go firing rockets into civilian areas you have to expect civilians to get killed. They're liars. They know going in, from past experience, that they're going to kill many civilians for each terrorist. We can start sympathising when they show some genuine intent to kill just the few terrorists that are firing rockets at them.

It's strange that these terrorists who are apparently aiming to cause the most death and destruction just never manage to get as good as the Israelis at slaughtering civilians. You don't act like the terrorists then pretend you still retain some moral high ground.
 

nthdimension

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So as long as they only kill "a few people" terrorist attacks are ok?

Do you know who the Palestinian gvt is? Ever heard of Hamas? These people voted terrorists into government

it is a large diverse group of militias, or for the most part have the peoples support. And they fire their rockets from these civilian areas.
You misunderstand. What does Israel hope to gain by bombing a civilian area and killing ten children? Do they honestly think this is going to have Palistinians saying how bad Hamas militants are and they're grateful to Israel for blowing them up, even if they did happen to kill eighteen civilians in the process? Are they really so completely stupid that they would think this is going to stop the rockets being fired into Israel?

You cannot blame people for voting Hamas into government when the PLO failed to stop Israel from murdering civilians. Somehow Israel's always right no matter what they do, in spite of the fact they always seem to be the ones killing more people. But that's also the Palestinians' fault apparently.

The very simple fact is that the magnitude of the attacks against Israel has not justified the magnitude of their response. They have a history of responding excessively.

The IRA were also terrorists. Even after Sin Fein and the UK government had agreed to stop being morons - and both sides were guilty of violence - radical militant members continued to perpetrate acts of violence. The UK should have just carried out a few bombing raids on Belfast. That'd sort out those Irish scum.
 

Nick333

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Israel isnt trying to confuse anyone.. They dont care what the SA' government has to say, we are irrelavent on this planet :)
Perhaps then we should start murdering our neighbours and get ourselves some recognition, like Israel who has no relevance beyond the perpetual conflicts they are involved in that threaten global political stability.

Its the SA Zionist Federation that issued the justified statement...
Fair enough.
Of course it should be asked why a nationalist political movement belonging to a middle eastern country exists in any form in South Africa. Are they political exiles living here as asylum seekers or are they South African Jews who lack the courage of their convictions? Im guessing the latter.
The ridiculousness of a South African zionist( or an American, British or any other Zionist except for an Israeli zionist) should be self-evident. If you are jewish and believe in a zionist state go live there. If you are a jew and a South African address South African(including our foriegn affairs ministry) issues as a South African.

SA never has anything to say about Sudan or Somalia, or even Zimbabwe.. Hell, we welcome Mugabe with open arms, give him treatment at our hospitals.. All because he was part of the struggle.
Still doesn't justify Israels actions.
 

noxibox

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Before anyone bites my head off - I don't support either side. There is no excuse for whoever is responsible for firing rockets at an Israeli town, whether or not this is sanctioned by the official Palestinian government. There is also just no valid excuse for the way Israel responds.

If you have evidence that the Palestinian government ordered those attacks then you should present that evidence. And Israel should have taken that evidence to the international community.

For all we know those firing the rockets were specifically choosing targets likely to result in minimal casualties specifically to provoke an extreme response from Israel.
 

Getafix

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The Israelies have been doing it for ages.

You hit them, they hit back twice as hard.

Moral of the story, don't hit and then cry. Ask Libannon. Or the Egyptions during the 70's for that matter.
 
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noxibox

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You hit them, they hit back twice as hard.

Moral of the story, don't hit and then cry. Ask Libannon. Or the Egyptions during the 70's for that matter.
What they're doing is like your teenage child hitting me so I respond by blowing up your suburb.

We're assuming that the people crying are the ones that did the hitting. All I see is a lot of people basically saying the Hamas government must have been involved in the rocket attacks and the civilians that were bombed brought this on themselves because they must have been helping those firing the rockets.
 

surface

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What they're doing is like your teenage child hitting me so I respond by blowing up your suburb.

We're assuming that the people crying are the ones that did the hitting. All I see is a lot of people basically saying the Hamas government must have been involved in the rocket attacks and the civilians that were bombed brought this on themselves because they must have been helping those firing the rockets.
I agree with Getafix. "You hit them, they hit back twice as hard.", dont hit and cry.

Hardly anything like a teenage conflict, is it? This is war between 2 countries, who started it and who didnt becomes immaterial after so much hostility. You get hit across the border by a rocket bomb, you are not going to have a 3-year legal investigation as to "where rocket came from, did hamas do it or was it aliens? are we 100% sure?". Isarel believes that terrorists are hiding among civilians with active help from palestine community, so they dont count as civilians any more. As to 'excessive' force, what is your idea? In war, if A side kills 3 people and damages 4 buildings , should B side kill exactly 3 and destroy 4 buildings and no more?
 
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IanC

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And Israel should have taken that evidence to the international community.
What good would that have done ... would the international community be outraged and root out the militants? I think not, most likely they would say they disapproved and move on.
We're assuming that the people crying are the ones that did the hitting. All I see is a lot of people basically saying the Hamas government must have been involved in the rocket attacks and the civilians that were bombed brought this on themselves because they must have been helping those firing the rockets.
This is not without precedent: If I aid a criminal in his escape or through inaction allow him to escape, what am I guilty of? I am not guilty of the criminal's activities, but I have every chance of a court saying that I am.
 

icyrus

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Stupidity abounds in that region of the world.

If the Palestinians took a non-violent approach to Israel the pressure on Israel to change its ways would have forced change by now. The same point applies equally well to Israel.

The problem is that you have the leaders on both sides that gain from sowing discord and never want to see the issue resolved. Add to that the fact these people actually have many followers who believe the same rubbish and you can see that there will be no progress any time soon.
 

SuperAntMD

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Perhaps then we should start murdering our neighbours and get ourselves some recognition, like Israel who has no relevance beyond the perpetual conflicts they are involved in that threaten global political stability.
By the same argument, South Africa has no reason to be making the comments that sparked off the reply in the first place then

Fair enough.
Of course it should be asked why a nationalist political movement belonging to a middle eastern country exists in any form in South Africa. Are they political exiles living here as asylum seekers or are they South African Jews who lack the courage of their convictions? Im guessing the latter.
The ridiculousness of a South African zionist( or an American, British or any other Zionist except for an Israeli zionist) should be self-evident. If you are jewish and believe in a zionist state go live there. If you are a jew and a South African address South African(including our foriegn affairs ministry) issues as a South African.
Well for a large part they raise awareness and are a major driving force in creating the emmigration you are describing. There is nothing more ridiculous about the South African Zionist Fed then there is about having a German school in South Africa for instance. You are also making the mistake of assuming that all Zionists are Jewish, that is a false and ignorant assumption. If these people are not Jewish then their beliefs in Zionism are immaterial to where they should resign.
 

SuperAntMD

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You cannot blame people for voting Hamas into government when the PLO failed to stop Israel from murdering civilians. Somehow Israel's always right no matter what they do, in spite of the fact they always seem to be the ones killing more people. But that's also the Palestinians' fault apparently.

The very simple fact is that the magnitude of the attacks against Israel has not justified the magnitude of their response. They have a history of responding excessively.
Firstly, the PLO was sponsoring terrorism for at least 30 years so its not like voting in Hamas was some radical new move, it was just an escalation.

Secondly just because Israel is the one "killing more people" doesn't make them wrong. As others have said here, if you pick a fight with a someone stronger then you don't cry when they hurt you worse then you hurt them. So in some ways it is the Palestinians fault, they initiate attacks aimed at civilians, Israel responds aggressively. I am not saying it is acceptable to kill civilians but that is what happens in these situations, it is a reality of war and life.

The IRA were also terrorists. Even after Sin Fein and the UK government had agreed to stop being morons - and both sides were guilty of violence - radical militant members continued to perpetrate acts of violence. The UK should have just carried out a few bombing raids on Belfast. That'd sort out those Irish scum.
Compare apples with apples, I may be wrong but I don'y believe the stated aim of the IRA was ever the abolishment and destruction of England.

The PLO
Wikipedia said:
Founded by the Arab League in 1964, its goal was the destruction of the State of Israel through armed struggle, and replacing it with an "independent Palestinian state"
admittedly they modified this in recent years

Hamas
Wikipedia said:
Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in effect) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state
 

noxibox

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What good would that have done ... would the international community be outraged and root out the militants?
If they had evidence to this effect then they could back up their claim that they were in fact attacking terrorists rather than simply just killing civilians in the hope of frightening the Palestinians. There was no urgency for a response since even the Israelis acknowledge there have been many small attacks. This was a not a response to a specific immediate threat.

This is not without precedent: If I aid a criminal in his escape or through inaction allow him to escape, what am I guilty of? I am not guilty of the criminal's activities, but I have every chance of a court saying that I am.
The correct analogy would be to say we assumed you helped a criminal last time so we're going to use our previous assumption as evidence this time to back up our latest assumption.

Israel is at best saying that they believe some civilians helped those firing rockets so they dropped some bombs on buildings in the general area.
 
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