Zuma court decision

[Moederloos]

He probably can ... but he's going to be pretty much useless as a president because of the time he'll spend in court. That aside ... should he be proven guilty he loses the presidential seat.

But those are just my thoughts, I'm hardly a legal expert. So I could be wrong.

at least he will be in the country...

 

[ZA.Schmidt]

The more I think about this the more I think it was more a judgement against Nicholson, and undoing his allegations rather that a judgement against JZ. Will be some interesting news in the next few days/weeks.

 

[HypoThesis]

Constitutionally speaking, a president of the country cannot have a criminal record. Unlike in America, we in SA don't vote for a president, we vote for a party. We then give right to the majority party in parliament to select one of it's MP's as president. To be an MP you cannot have a criminal record hence the big fight against the Scorpions and Travelgate, their gravy train would have come to a big halt.

Mandela and the rest were pardoned and their "terrorist" records were removed hence them being able to become MP's.

So can Zuma become Pres? Technically yes, they can name Motlanthe as their candidate for Pres. Once he become Pres. after the election and if Zuma is convicted, Motlanthe could just pardon Zuma, appoint him as an MP resign from his post as Pres. and have parliament vote for a new President. If the majority is the ANC they could just put Zuma there.

Very unlikely but very possible.

Mbeki's case, however, cannot be changed. He wasn't fired per se, just recalled and therefore he can just clear his name and get some sympathy but that is it for him.

 

[Le^stat]

Agreed.

Although I still have to complete my studies first ...

Join the club...

 

[2CentsWorth]

Constitutionally speaking, a president of the country cannot have a criminal record. Unlike in America, we in SA don't vote for a president, we vote for a party. We then give right to the majority party in parliament to select one of it's MP's as president. To be an MP you cannot have a criminal record hence the big fight against the Scorpions and Travelgate, their gravy train would have come to a big halt.

Mandela and the rest were pardoned and their "terrorist" records were removed hence them being able to become MP's.

So can Zuma become Pres? Technically yes, they can name Motlanthe as their candidate for Pres. Once he become Pres. after the election and if Zuma is convicted, Motlanthe could just pardon Zuma, appoint him as an MP resign from his post as Pres. and have parliament vote for a new President. If the majority is the ANC they could just put Zuma there.

Very unlikely but very possible.

Mbeki's case, however, cannot be changed. He wasn't fired per se, just recalled and therefore he can just clear his name and get some sympathy but that is it for him.

Please pardon my ignorance here.

So, technically if you have a criminal record and receive a presidential pardon, such criminal record will be expunged?

Doesn't seem like that should be the case legally speaking

 

[kryptik]

Patrick Craven of COSATU says that they'll throw their weight behind whichever legal course Zuma chooses to follow, and that they (COSATU) still believe that there's sufficient evidence to show that there was political meddling against Zuma. Personally i think that he's being a big crybaby right now. Can only imagine the apoplectic fit that Julius must be throwing.

 

[Slaine73]

Patrick Craven of COSATU says that they'll throw their weight behind whichever legal course Zuma chooses to follow, and that they (COSATU) still believe that there's sufficient evidence to show that there was political meddling against Zuma. Personally i think that he's being a big crybaby right now. Can only imagine the apoplectic fit that Julius must be throwing.

Let's hope he does not recover from his apoplectic fit and then we can safely and gladly lock him away in some not so nice mental institution where he can rot away for the rest of his life. Ah if only

 

[shadowfox]

Please pardon my ignorance here.

So, technically if you have a criminal record and receive a presidential pardon, such criminal record will be expunged?

Doesn't seem like that should be the case legally speaking

It's not ...

Even if you receive a presidential pardon - the criminal record still stands. Motlanthe could pardon him all he likes, the fact would remain that Zuma would have a criminal conviction.

 

[kryptik]

Full judgment can be downloaded from Business Day's site. http://www.businessday.co.za/downloads/NDPPvZumaJudgment.pdf

 

[Kosmik]

The only image going through my head is that Zapiro cartoon of Zuma standing in front of the "justice lady" with his hands on his pants.

Now I think a classic comeback is her puting him over her knee and saying "bad boy"

 

[shadowfox]

I'll draw one tonight ... credit you with the idea ... shall I?

I'm busy going through the judgement now ... and although it is in extreme legalese ... and a lot of it is going over my head ... it makes for some interesting reading.

 

[JungleBoy]

Now that the expected has happened, can the legal experts please tell us what the implications will be if Zuma decides to take the matter to the Constitutional Court. What is the likelyhood that by the time the matter is heard by the ConCour it would be after the elections and Zuma might already be the president?

 

[kryptik]

I'm not connected to the legal field in any way, but i'd think that the fact that the judgment by the Appeals Bench was unanimous should count for something in the Constitutional Court.

 

[shadowfox]

I'm guessing ... but based on what I've read in the judgement - taking it to ConCourt is just going to delay the inevitable. Although the ANC could use that to delay the charges even more, and hope to gain enough of a majority in the elections to get the charges set aside somehow.

But that is really just speculation on my part - but Harmse was making a lot of references to the constitution in his judgement, especially where Kemp was making some rather big assumptions on the Bill of Rights, which doesn't seem to deal with this - rather, the section they needed to refer to was the section that dealt with the role of the justice system ... etc.

 

[kingmonty]

Now that the expected has happened, can the legal experts please tell us what the implications will be if Zuma decides to take the matter to the Constitutional Court. What is the likelyhood that by the time the matter is heard by the ConCour it would be after the elections and Zuma might already be the president?

Appeals to the concourt is always very slow thanks to the massive amount of documentation that needs to be submitted. I haven looked at the judgement yet myself though. But the chances are good Jacob Zuma´s legal team will leave this to the absolute last moment to appeal the decision. Chances are strong they will press forward only after the NPA announces they will proceed with the charges against Zuma, thereby increasing the chances of a drawn out affair.

 

[marine1]

Well I hope the concourt says no

 

[mic_y]

Also, the ConCourt could just deny Zuma the right to appeal the decision if they feel that the judgement was fair (at least that is the way I understand it)...

 

[shadowfox]

It looks pretty fair and thorough to me.

As Harmse said ... Nicolson was bringing a lot of unrelated/irrelevant evidence into his decision, and seemed to bring some personal rhetoric into the judgement as well ...

He definitely overstepped the bounds - something I said when he handed his judgement down last year.

 

[HypoThesis]

Please pardon my ignorance here.

So, technically if you have a criminal record and receive a presidential pardon, such criminal record will be expunged?

Doesn't seem like that should be the case legally speaking

Sorry for only responding now, i had to run off somewhere. Answer to your question is Yes, a presidential pardon clears your criminal record completely. As in, if they check your name nothing will show up.

It's not ...

Even if you receive a presidential pardon - the criminal record still stands. Motlanthe could pardon him all he likes, the fact would remain that Zuma would have a criminal conviction.

Wrong. Criminal record is removed in it's entirety. Here's the form if any of you wanna apply... http://www.doj.gov.za/forms/pres_pardon/Pres_pardon_application_form.pdf

FW de Klerk pardoned Mandela and most of the current ANC NEC as part of the CODESA talks. It was one of the requirements under the agreement otherwise none of them could have become MP's and eventually ministers and such.

 

[Vrotappel]

Some damning statements of the previous judgment:

It follows from this that, as the trial judge recognised, ‘political meddling’ was not an issue that had to be determined. Nevertheless, a substantial part of his judgment dealt with this question; and in the course of this discussion he changed the rules of the game, took his eyes off the ball and red-carded not only players but also spectators. Lest his judgment be considered authoritative it will be necessary to deal with these matters.

It is crucial to provide an exposition of the functions of a judicial officer because, for reasons that are impossible to fathom, the court below failed to adhere to some basic tenets, in particular that in exercising the judicial function judges are themselves constrained by the law. The underlying theme of the court’s judgment was that the judiciary is independent; that judges are no respecters of persons; and that they stand between the subject and any attempted encroachments on liberties by the executive.This commendable approach was unfortunately subverted by a failure to confine the judgment to the issues before the court; by deciding matters that were not germane or relevant; by creating new factual issues; by making gratuitous findings against persons who were not called upon to defend themselves; by failing to distinguish between allegation, fact and suspicion; and by transgressing the proper boundaries between judicial, executive and legislative functions.