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Thread: Introduction to Islam

  1. #856
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    Thanks -

    For Muslims, a highly objectionable depiction in figure art would be to show the Prophet in a picture, him being the very person who, in a certain context, referred to figure art as a disrespect/undermining of God (although Muslim artists in the Muslim world have occasionally depicted him in pictures)
    Yet there is a well known statue of Mohammed on the Supreme Court building in the US - is this an exception for some reason ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lafrica View Post
    they (criminals ) are just trying to make a living .

  2. #857

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveza View Post
    Thanks -
    Yet there is a well known statue of Mohammed on the Supreme Court building in the US - is this an exception for some reason ?
    Depictions that are said to represent Prophet Muhammad exist in both the Muslim and the non-Muslim world. It remains a controversial matter, but the context is an important consideration. The statue on the US Supreme Court Building, while distasteful to Muslims, is recognised as being well-intentioned and an act of goodwill by non-Muslims. There were some Muslim pressure groups who opposed it, but these groups deferred to senior US-based Islamic scholar, who impressed upon the importance of understanding the context.

    What Taha Jaber al-Alwani said includes the following:

    "What I have seen in the Supreme Courtroom deserves nothing but appreciation and gratitude from American Muslims. This is a positive gesture toward Islam made by the architect and other architectural decision-makers of the highest Court in America. God willing, it will help ameliorate some of the unfortunate misinformation that has surrounded Islam and Muslims in this country.

    In a culture whose literary heritage is replete with disdainful images of the Prophet Muhammad . . . it is comforting to note that those in the highest Court in the United States were able to surmount these prejudices, and display his image among those of the greatest lawgivers in human history. Isnít that effort a noble gesture that deserves from us, who believe in him as the Prophet and Messenger, every encouragement, esteem, and gratitude instead of disapproval, condemnation, and outrage?"

  3. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by grantza View Post
    Then, the other night, there was a program on the National Art Gallery, and it's transformation by director Raison Naidoo
    There was commentary about the lack of Muslim artists, and that 2 Muslim bothers have been "discovered", who's art is currently being showcased.
    not answering myself here - just adding a link to their work:
    http://www.goodman-gallery.com/artists/hasanhusainessop

  4. #859
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    Thanks Wayfarer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lafrica View Post
    they (criminals ) are just trying to make a living .

  5. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by grantza View Post
    not answering myself here - just adding a link to their work:
    http://www.goodman-gallery.com/artists/hasanhusainessop
    A little deviating from Topic but i think more cultural than religious reasons we have little Muslim artists?

    Moms and dads would prefer an accountant rather than a painter
    Some times the internet is so slow, it would be faster to just fly to Google's headquarters and ask them this $h1t in person.!

  6. #861

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    In your opinion is the Islamic faith due for a reformation?

    You speak of many highly regarded Muslim clerics/scholars who preach a far less violent interpretation of the Quran, but I do not see their voices being taken as the authorities you claim they should be.

  7. #862

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwojima View Post
    In your opinion is the Islamic faith due for a reformation?
    Thank you, Iwojima, for a most relevant question, especially given the situation in the world today!

    The answer is no, the worst thing that could happen to the Islamic faith (and the world) is a reformation of the Islam. Look at ISIS and the likes, and you can see what "Islamic reform" does. Deviation from the safety of classical, traditional interpretations of Islam's canonical texts has proven to be catastrophic in every sense (see my post about the role of Islam's canonical texts in preventing disaster). There are other moments in Islam's history where this dangerous phenomenon threatened the integrity of Islam, but it was quickly challenged and neutralised. But the potential harm of those instances pales in significance when compared to the havoc that today's misguided, angry reformers can wreak in the era of modern technology. What the Islamic faith is direly in need of is a counter-reformation, so that the Islamic body may keep its course (see 10-minute YouTube clip). We need to resist the violent "Islamic Protestantism" of extremists and terrorists. See my earlier post on the counter-reformation needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwojima View Post
    You speak of many highly regarded Muslim clerics/scholars who preach a far less violent interpretation of the Quran, but I do not see their voices being taken as the authorities you claim they should be.
    There are over 1,6 billion Muslims in the world today. Possibly 99,999% (not a literal statistic!) of Muslims do revere and follow our veteran, mainstream scholars. Be wary of filtering the reality on the ground via Islamophobic media and other elements in the West that create an atmosphere that is increasingly hostile toward Islam. I assume you are a SA citizen. Look around you, observe the Muslims you know, look at the situation for yourself. Certainly, no Muslim individual, community or country is perfect. Far from it; we are all flawed, and the world is rife with corruption across ethnicity, religion and geographic region. But the truth is that most Muslims in the world are typical, family oriented, peace-loving people. Again, we have to redouble our efforts at countering this radical reformation trend, lest it spins out of control.

    We need to:
    1. Educate Muslims about the beauty and wholesomeness of the classical tradition, and why it has been trusted by Muslims through the centuries, to the present day. Education.
    2. Psychological health and personal development. We should all be challenged to rise above ourselves, and deal with others in the best of ways. We must understand that "love thy neighbour" is a central core of every major religion or social ideology.
    3. Take cognizance of Western foreign policies and "adventures" into Muslim lands, and understand how that impacts on political extremism (with a religious reference for justification).
    4. Educate non-Muslims about classical, traditional Islam followed by the overwhelming majority of Muslims for more than a millennium. The problem is that anti-Muslim haters of Islam, and the Islamic terrorists, are actually complementary, and have much in common. Both groups eschew the beautiful classical Islamic scholarly legacy (followed by most Muslims) in favour of angry, hate-filled extreme interpretations.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 07-03-2016 at 10:00 AM.

  8. #863

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Deviation from the safety of classical, traditional interpretations of Islam's canonical texts has proven to be catastrophic in every sense
    Sounds like a set up for fake Scotsmen. It seems to be that Bagdadhi and his guys are behaving exactly as the Prophet and his followers behaved back in the day, except they now have modern technology to carry out their view of Islam. I think that the Muslim world has left ISIS alone to long and now they can not do anything about it. The only way to reform Islam is to declare it all invalid and create a completely new religion based on modern world morals. That way everyone can have say in what is morally accepted and be able provide reasons for their position.

    Unless of course, the god of Islam would care to make an appearance and re-issue the Qur'an in a format that everyone would be able to understand without doubt.

  9. #864

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    Quote Originally Posted by S.Harris View Post
    Sounds like a set up for fake Scotsmen.
    Thank you for your comment.

    No one is making any claims of TrueIslamTM. Note, though, that there is an academic concept of normative religion, which in Islam's case is the religion espoused by the traditional Islamic scholarship collective and followed by the vast majority of Muslims over the centuries since its founding.

    Quote Originally Posted by S.Harris View Post
    It seems to be that Bagdadhi and his guys are behaving exactly as the Prophet and his followers behaved back in the day, except they now have modern technology to carry out their view of Islam.
    In other words, ISIS members are the true Scotsmen???

    Your personal expert understanding of the Prophetic character is in stark contrast to the historical understanding of thousands of Islamic scholarly specialists in Quranic exegesis, history, Arabic, Hadith science, jurisprudence, etc., as well as the interpretation of over 99% of the Muslims of the world (Wahhabis/Salafis make up less than 1% of the world's Muslims, and an even smaller percentage are violent extremists). However, your understanding is fully in sync with that of the most hate-filled, murderous, inhuman terrorists on the planet, with their less-than-a-handful of "scholars"; and it is in sync with hate-filled, anti-Muslim, war-mongering bigots. Take heed of who shares your views, lest you be unfairly lumped with them.

    The multicultural societies and the numerous churches and synagogues protected under the Ottoman Islamic empire until the early 1900s bear testimony to this, whereafter secular nationalism and European colonialism took over and exacerbated processes of moral decay and social and cultural unrest.

    Quote Originally Posted by S.Harris View Post
    I think that the Muslim world has left ISIS alone to long and now they can not do anything about it.
    Every major Muslim organisation has spoken out against ISIS, and proven from Islam's primary sources that their actions are not justifiable or consistent with Islamic jurisprudence. But they take no heed, for their basis is political, and they merely use religion to further their agenda. Islamic Universities and institutions (in South Africa too) have been issuing statements and spreading awareness of this dangerous ideology since the time of ISIS's predecessors. Muslim nations and militias have been bombing and attacking ISIS positions since its inception, before any Western country became directly involved in combating ISIS, and Muslims remain the biggest military and ideological opponents of ISIS to this day (although Western action was highly instrumental in the creation of these groups in the first place). Muslims are also their biggest victim group.

    You must agree that it is untrue that "the Muslim world has left ISIS alone".

    Quote Originally Posted by S.Harris View Post
    The only way to reform Islam is to declare it all invalid and create a completely new religion
    Lucky for Islam and the world, that "reform" process is being opposed in full might, lest the ISIS types start recruiting millions, instead of thousands. (According to a Russian source, ISIS numbers are 80 000, but the Russians are keen to present a large number, to justify their escapade into Syria. No reliable figures exist.)

    Quote Originally Posted by S.Harris View Post
    ...based on modern world morals. That way everyone can have say in what is morally accepted and be able provide reasons for their position.
    Much is good about modern world morals and the Western system of morality, but there is also much that is disgusting and destructive, such as the fall of the family, extreme capitalism, neo-colonialism and imperialism, etc. To me, there is no better value system than the one espoused by mainstream Islam. There is much that I disagree with in many Muslim societies, but they will benefit tremendously from more closely following classical and traditional Islamic scholarship. Education is the key.

    Quote Originally Posted by S.Harris View Post
    Unless of course, the god of Islam would care to make an appearance and re-issue the Qur'an in a format that everyone would be able to understand without doubt.
    No intensive acclaimed literary work (or even complex scientific theory/law) is ever understood by everyone "without doubt". That is why humanity, including the Islamic civilisation, produces and respects specialised scholarship, and prizes endeavours such as peer review and consensus. However, your preferred Scotsmen, ISIS, shun the classical and traditional Islamic scholarship legacy in favour of a few lone, merciless "scholars", who do not tolerate peer review, and are diametrically opposed to centuries of Islamic scholarly consensus.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 29-07-2016 at 04:33 PM.

  10. #865

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    I thought this would fit well here.

    a groundbreaking report on British Muslims is released.

    you can read the actual the report here.

  11. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyghost View Post
    I thought this would fit well here.

    a groundbreaking report on British Muslims is released.

    you can read the actual the report here.
    A very good point, which I've noted before, as well:

    “The truth is that Muslims can be socially conservative on some issues and this may be difficult for some secular liberals to accept. However, social conservatism should not be conflated with radicalisation, extremism or terrorism. Muslims are more than capable of being loyal and productive citizens of this country while at the same time not compromising their religious beliefs.”
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

  12. #867

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    Well we have that exemplified in South Africa don't we? A large Muslim population and very few nutters (none that I am aware of personally)

  13. #868
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    Anyone here listening to Nomaan Ally Khan?

    He has many lectures on youtube.

    From all the lecturers I find
    his material to be the most accessible and informative.

    He seems to adopt the teacher/student approach which is a really effective way Islam can be taught.

    Would appreciate any feedback and I hope I'm not derailing this amazing thread.
    Beginning today, treat everyone you meet as if they were going to be dead by midnight - Og Mandino.

  14. #869

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    Yeah, he's very good. Has cleared up a lot of stuff for me which was lingering since madrasah days
    ďThose who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    - Benjamin Franklin

  15. #870
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    I have a question from another thread:


    why do muslims have to enter the toilet using the left foot then leave using the right foot ?

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