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Thread: Introduction to Islam

  1. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    ..
    Marriages
    Aishah was the daughter of his closest friend Abu Bakr. Her marriage to Muhammad was arranged when she was very young, but their marriage was not consummated until she entered puberty.
    Proof? By "entered puberty" you mean 9 years old?

  2. #107

    Default Aisha's Age when Her Marriage was Consummated

    Main > Q&A > Aisha's Age when Her Marriage was Consummated


    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    Proof? By "entered puberty" you mean 9 years old?
    Debates around Aishah's age at the time she was married to Prophet Muhammad have been happening since the earliest days of Islam. Early Muslims regarded Aisha's youth as demonstrating her virginity, and tended to favour reports that placed her at the youngest age. However, some studies questioned the very young age recorded in certain reports. Most reports placed her puberty age to be 9, and obviously this was also the age that modern-day critics of Prophet Muhammad prefered to latch onto, i.e. critics who do not even have knowledge of history, the cultural context, or the Hadith record sciences.

    In terms of the age that Aisha's marriage was consummated:

    • Mainstream scholars generally place her age at 9 (some say possibly older).
    • Shia scholars who doubt the reliability of certain narrations place her age at 14 to 16.
    • Ahmadiyyahs (such as Muhammad Ali), say she was as old as 19. (Ahmadiyyah's are generally considered to be non-Muslim.)

    What we do know was that Aisha describes an "illness" shortly before joining Prophet Muhammad's household. And this "illness", coupled with certain behavioural changes, is understood by some scholars to be the onset of menarche. Marriages at the ages of between 9 and 14 were common in Bedouin (and other Semitic) societies at the time, and historians (such as British scholar, Colin Turner) suggest that such marriages were not problematic in the historical context. Even in the 20th century, legislation existed in the West (including the USA) that had the legal age of consent for sexual intercourse to be even lower than that of Aisha's consummation age.

    According to Women and Social Movements 1600-2000 (affiliate of Binghamton, State University of New York CHSWG):

    In the late nineteenth century... (and early 20th century) the laws of most states (in the USA) set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, although their ultimate goal was to raise the age to eighteen.

    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    Would you let your 9 year old daughter be deflowered by a 50 year old man? Civilized society has a name for this. Thus the outcry.
    (Quoted post above appears later in thread)

    This is an interesting question, and reflecting on it, one could consider the following:
    • Is the person being asked this question living in a 7th century, desert tribal society?
    • Does the culture in that place and time view this as an acceptable societal norm?
    • And importantly, are the pubescent bride and her parents of the Muslim faith, and is the bridegroom the Prophet Muhammad, recognised by Muslims as the pinnacle of all creation, most beloved of God, the one whom God states He "sent as a mercy" to all (Quran 21:107)?

    One could then pose the following rhetorical question: If the answer was yes to any of the above, what do you think the answer to the posters question would be?

    See also mainstream Muslim support for age 9 or 10:

    See also mainstream Muslim support for the possibility of older than 9 or 10:
    Last edited by wayfarer; 17-08-2014 at 11:11 AM.

  3. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Marriages at the ages of between 9 and 14 were relatively common in Bedouin societies at the time, and historians (such as British scholar, Colin Turner) suggest that such marriages were not seen as improper in the historical context.
    Good wiki copy/paste. Child marriages might have been common, but what age was the prophet when he married a 6 year old?
    Last edited by unskinnybob; 04-09-2012 at 08:57 AM.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    Good wiki copy/paste. Child marriages might have been common, but what age was the prophet when he married a 6 year old?
    where did you get that he ever maried a 6 year old?
    Some times the internet is so slow, it would be faster to just fly to Google's headquarters and ask them this $h1t in person.!

  5. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by isie View Post
    where did you get that he ever maried a 6 year old?
    Age of Aisha at time of marriage with Holy Prophet Muhammad

    It is believed on the authority of some Hadith reports that the marriage ceremony (known as nikah, amounting to betrothal) of Aisha with the Holy Prophet Muhammad took place when she was six years of age, and that she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife three years later at the age of nine. We quote below from two such reports in Bukhari.

    “It is reported from Aisha that she said: The Prophet entered into marriage with me when I was a girl of six … and at the time [of joining his household] I was a girl of nine years of age.”
    http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

    SUNAN ABU DAWUD

    Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said: Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4915)

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 13, Number 2380)
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

    http://answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

  6. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    Information is drawn from papers by G.F. Haddad and Dr. Resit Haylamaz respectively, as well as Hadith (Bukhari). Remember that Wikipedia is not a primary source, and that it too references other sources. They likely referenced a common source (C. Turner, Islam, the basics) for that part.

    Child marriages might not have been common, but what age was the prophet when he married a 6 year old?
    Once again, there are differences of opinion on whether Prophet Muhammad "married a 6 year old". You seem to be more certain than many modern day scholars as to her age of marriage. Some sources place her at this age, such as the ones you quote. Others place her at around a decade older. But as was mentioned earlier, there is general consensus that consummation took place after puberty.

    While the minimum age is generally puberty, there are no reports of maximum ages for marriage in early Bedouin societies, so this can be anything (although senility would definitely be regarded as problematic). Sources place Prophet Muhammad variously between his 40s and early 50s at the time of his marriage to Aisha.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 04-09-2012 at 10:50 AM.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Information is drawn from papers by G.F. Haddad and Dr. Resit Haylamaz respectively, as well as Hadith (Bukhari). Remember that Wikipedia is not a primary source, and that it too references other sources. They likely referenced a common source (C. Turner, Islam, the basics) for that part.


    Once again, there are differences of opinion on whether Prophet Muhammad "married a 6 year old". You seem to be more certain than many modern day scholars as to her age of marriage. Some sources place her at this age, such as the ones you quote. Others place her at around a decade older. But as was mentioned earlier, there is general consensus that consummation took place after puberty.

    While the minimum age is generally puberty, there are no reports of maximum ages for marriage in early Bedouin societies, so this can be anything (although senility would definitely be regarded as problematic). Sources place Prophet Muhammad variously between his 40s and early 50s at the time of his marriage to Aisha.
    Absolute FUD from you. Trying to strech the truth so you make it sound like she was older. Historian and scholars (muslim and western) are pretty much in agreement on her age.

    Marriage to Muhammad

    Khawlah bint Hakim suggested that Muhammad marry Aisha after the death of Muhammad's first wife (Khadijah bint Khuwaylid), after this, previous agreement regarding marriage of Aisha with Jubayr ibn Mut'im was put aside by common consent.[6] British historian William Montgomery Watt suggests that Muhammad hoped to strengthen his ties with Abu Bakr;[6] the strengthening of ties commonly served as a basis for marriage in Arabian culture.[7]
    According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad and nine when the marriage was consummated.[6][8][9] American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."[8] This issue of her virginity was of great importance to those who supported Aisha's position in the debate of the succession to Muhammad. These supporters considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate.[10]
    Age at marriage


    Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated when she was nine.[6][8][9][11][12][13] However, al-Tabari records that she was ten.[8] The sources do not offer much more information about Aisha's childhood years, but mention that after the wedding, she continued to play with her toys, and that Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[14]
    The issue of Aisha's age at the time she was married to Muhammad has been of interest since the earliest days of Islam, and references to her age by early historians are frequent. Early Muslims regarded Aisha's youth as demonstrating her virginity and therefore her suitability as a bride of Muhammad. According to Spellberg, historians who supported Aisha's position in the debate of the succession to Muhammad against Shi'a claims considered her youth, and therefore her purity, to be of paramount importance. They thus specifically emphasized it, implying that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible in the debate.[8]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

    There are SIX references you can pull from, and unless you have evidence they all come from a common source, dont make up stuff and pretend they were.
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  8. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
    Absolute FUD from you. Trying to strech the truth so you make it sound like she was older. Historian and scholars (muslim and western) are pretty much in agreement on her age.
    False. Even some basic research would expose you to the different arguments by various Muslim groups who defend a particular age, as well as an evaluation of the primary sources used as substantiation. However, the majority of mainstream scholars do say that she was 9 at consummation, and this is not in the least bit problematic.

    Anyway, the intention of this thread is not to go into depths with the technicalities of any of the Islamic sciences (such as the complexities involved in ulum-ul-Hadith, of which I consider myself merely a beginner student), but to serve as an introduction to Islam according to the mainstream.

    What is your point?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

    There are SIX references you can pull from, and unless you have evidence they all come from a common source, dont make up stuff and pretend they were.
    Forgive me for not understanding what you mean by that. Perhaps I was not clear. What I meant was that my main sources of information for what I stated earlier was Haddad and Haylamaz respectively (and Bukhari hadith), and the reason why Wikipedia says things similar what they said could be because they are both referencing C. Turner for that point. But I do not think that this matter is pivotal to the discussion.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 12-11-2012 at 07:50 AM.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    False. Even some basic research would expose you to the different arguments by various Muslim groups who defend a particular age, ranging from 9 to 19, as well as an evaluation of the primary sources. Unfortunately, no available source on this matter is regarded as mutawatir (unquestionable) in the veracity of its specifics, and so differences exist. Western scholars have these same sources to rely upon.

    The intention of this thread is not to go into depths with the technicalities of any of the Islamic sciences (such as the complexities involved in ulum-ul-Hadith, of which I consider myself merely a beginner student), but to serve as an introduction to Islam according to the mainstream.

    What is your point?
    I was very clear on my point. Please reread my post. Your apologetic excuse does not carry weight.


    Forgive me for not understanding what you mean by that. Perhaps I was not clear. What I meant was that my main sources of information for what I stated earlier was Haddad and Haylamaz respectively (and Bukhari hadith ahad), and the reason why Wikipedia says things similar what they said could be because they are both referencing C. Turner for that point. But I do not think that this matter is pivotal to the discussion.
    Your opinion and your fringe beliefs do not carry the weight of most muslim and western scholars. Put simply. I dont believe you. I believe most scholars on this. IE. people who know more than you and me. Also, you have not proven that they all source Turner. That is made up BS you are putting out there.

    Sure, I understand why you would try hide the truth here... but like any apologetic. You have to jump through hoops and rewrite history to try make it like you have a valid point.

    These people... say you are lying:

    - Ahmed, Leila. Women and gender in Islam: historical roots of a modern debate.London: Yale UP, 1992. 9780300055832. 47-75
    -Watt, "Aisha", Encyclopedia of Islam Online
    - A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40
    -Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, p. 157.
    -Barlas (2002), p. 125-126
    - Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:58:234, 5:58:236, 7:62:64, 7:62:65, 7:62:88, Sahih Muslim, 8:3309, 8:3310, 8:3311, 41:4915, Sunnan Abu Dawud, 41:4917
    - Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131; Tabari, Volume 7, Page 7

    Now show me the evidence they all copied Tuner please.

    The latest any respected scholar has put her age is 10.

    I understand your intentions in this thread. Now understand mind. I dont do BS. If you are going to say stuff that can be shown to be false. Someone will mention it. Im sure you would like to rewrite history so all of Islam was this big kumbaya hippy gathering where everyone got along, but that artificial bubble that you create does not represent reality. It only represents your constructed reality.
    Last edited by ghoti; 04-09-2012 at 01:12 PM.
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  10. #115
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    What would it mean if her age was put at 10?
    That which comes into existence will eventually break apart and pass away

  11. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geriatrix View Post
    What would it mean if her age was put at 10?
    Imo it would be disgusting

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geriatrix View Post
    What would it mean if her age was put at 10?
    Nothing, as it means nothing that her age was 9. In those days what he did was socially acceptable. People back then did not have long life spans and you made babies asap. By the age of 19, a girl in those days was considered past her sell-by date and an old maid.
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  13. #118

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    Your response is wide off the mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
    Your opinion and your fringe beliefs do not carry the weight of most muslim and western scholars.
    I did not posit an opinion as to her age at all, I merely stated that there are differences amongst the sects and even in the mainstream, and that the mainstream generally puts her at 9 at the time of marriage consummation.

    Put simply. I dont believe you. I believe most scholars on this.
    Don't believe what? That there are differences of opinion regarding her age? Even the scholars who strongly (and with certainty) defend a particular age know that there are differences of opinion.

    IE. people who know more than you and me. Also, you have not proven that they all source Turner. That is made up BS you are putting out there.
    Perhaps you are still not clear on this (unimportant) point, because you definitely misunderstand what I was saying. I was saying that Turner was referenced by the papers I refer to as well as by Wikipedia on the matter regarding social marital norms of the time and place - that's all.

    These people... say you are lying:

    1- Ahmed, Leila. Women and gender in Islam: historical roots of a modern debate.London: Yale UP, 1992. 9780300055832. 47-75
    2-Watt, "Aisha", Encyclopedia of Islam Online
    3- A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40
    4-Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, p. 157.
    5-Barlas (2002), p. 125-126
    6- Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:58:234, 5:58:236, 7:62:64, 7:62:65, 7:62:88, Sahih Muslim, 8:3309, 8:3310, 8:3311, 41:4915, Sunnan Abu Dawud, 41:4917
    7- Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131; Tabari, Volume 7, Page 7
    Lying about what? Why don't you go off and read those sources that you quote, then come back to me, and we can chat. Because of the first 5 sources you quote, I have read 3, and all 3 acknowledge that differing opinions exist as to her age, so you clearly have not read your sources. I have not read Spellberg, but I know from reading the others (some of whom make reference to Spellberg) that even Spellberg holds that there are differences of opinion, although Spellberg suggests the younger age is more accurate. Your source number 6 actually consists of three separate Hadith compilers, who, while collecting and compiling individual narrations, remained silent on their veracity status. It is from the resultant analyses of individual narrations of these same 3 compilations, and some others, that the differing opinions arise. Source 7, Tabari, a classical Muslim scholar, places Aisha at 9, but also, based on his record of when Aisha's mother died, some calculate the age to be 14.

    Furthermore, your sources 1 through 4 are tertiary and rely on sources 6 (secondary) and 7 (primary), and I would venture to guess that source number 5 does too.

    The latest any respected scholar has put her age is 10.
    Well, that depends on who you regard as respected scholars in the field. If your meaning is that there is more support for the view of her being 9 or 10, then you are correct. But there are not only scholars, but whole scholarly organisations (including the Islamic Research Foundation International) that put her older.

    Note: I am not saying that she definitely was older than 9, I am merely saying that differences of opinion exist. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING. And that most mainstream scholars place her at 9.

    I understand your intentions in this thread. Now understand mind. I dont do BS. If you are going to say stuff that can be shown to be false. Someone will mention it. Im sure you would like to rewrite history so all of Islam was this big kumbaya hippy gathering where everyone got along, but that artificial bubble that you create does not represent reality. It only represents your constructed reality.
    Perhaps you have only read certain parts of this thread. Muslims have differences and there does exist conflict, and everyone does not always get along. I have spoken about this in the thread.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 12-11-2012 at 08:04 AM. Reason: Clarity

  14. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
    Nothing, as it means nothing that her age was 9. In those days what he did was socially acceptable. People back then did not have long life spans and you made babies asap. By the age of 19, a girl in those days was considered past her sell-by date and an old maid.
    Not completely disagreeing with you but she did end up living to 66.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unhappy438 View Post
    Not completely disagreeing with you but she did end up living to 66.
    One of the advantages of been part of a wealthy warlords family I would imagine.
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