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Thread: Introduction to Islam

  1. #121
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    Now that some people have enjoyed their tangential diversion, can we get back on topic? I actually find this thread quite interesting and informative.

    As already mentioned, back in those days you made babies asap (and thus females got married at a much younger age than they generally do today). So I really don't see the point in consuming pages of posts on this irrelevant bit of information. What exactly was Aisha's age when she got married? What exactly did Jesus have for breakfast on the morning 2 days after his 12th birthday? Exactly how tall was Moses? I'm sure you can impress someone with the correct answer to those questions, but it's probably out of place in an Introduction to Islam thread.

    wayfarer, if you don't mind, can you please continue with the original point of this thread? Thanks in advance.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodan View Post
    Now that some people have enjoyed their tangential diversion, can we get back on topic? I actually find this thread quite interesting and informative.

    As already mentioned, back in those days you made babies asap (and thus females got married at a much younger age than they generally do today). So I really don't see the point in consuming pages of posts on this irrelevant bit of information. What exactly was Aisha's age when she got married? What exactly did Jesus have for breakfast on the morning 2 days after his 12th birthday? Exactly how tall was Moses? I'm sure you can impress someone with the correct answer to those questions, but it's probably out of place in an Introduction to Islam thread.

    wayfarer, if you don't mind, can you please continue with the original point of this thread? Thanks in advance.
    +1

    Aisha's age at the time of marriage is completely irrelevant but the legacy she left in Islam is.Wayfarer please ignore the trolls and continue with the thread.In fact a piece about what Aisha's role was among the muslims following the death of the Prophet Muhammed would be greatly appreciated.
    Beginning today, treat everyone you meet as if they were going to be dead by midnight - Og Mandino.

  3. #123
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    @Ghoti.... Why so much hatred towards Muhammed???
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    @Ghoti.... Why so much hatred towards Muhammed???
    Would you let your 9 year old daughter be deflowered by a 50 year old man? Civilized society has a name for this. Thus the outcry. I myself struggle to understand how the Muslim community sweep this under the rug, accept this or even try to defend it.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    I myself struggle to understand how the Muslim community sweep this under the rug, accept this or even try to defend it.
    I suspect because;
    Quote Originally Posted by wise_guy View Post
    Aisha's age at the time of marriage is completely irrelevant but the legacy she left in Islam is.
    ...
    In fact a piece about what Aisha's role was among the muslims following the death of the Prophet Muhammed would be greatly appreciated.
    That which comes into existence will eventually break apart and pass away

  6. #126

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    Ok - moving on from the young wife issue, which I suspect we're not going to have any further input on.

    I couldn't find the "judgement day" part of your thread. The Q&A seems to have gotten your original intent a little off track.

    1. What is expected from a Muslim in terms of belief and worship? What does God judge you on? Mineer just pointed my attention to the fact that Islam doesn't follow the Christian belief of original sin.
    2. Christian doctrine insists people can't live without sin and would therefor be doomed if they don't accept Jesus as saviour. Do Muslims believe they can live without sin - or is forgiveness/absolution of sin part of worship?
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  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    Ok - moving on from the young wife issue, which I suspect we're not going to have any further input on.

    I couldn't find the "judgement day" part of your thread. The Q&A seems to have gotten your original intent a little off track.

    1. What is expected from a Muslim in terms of belief and worship? What does God judge you on? Mineer just pointed my attention to the fact that Islam doesn't follow the Christian belief of original sin.
    2. Christian doctrine insists people can't live without sin and would therefor be doomed if they don't accept Jesus as saviour. Do Muslims believe they can live without sin - or is forgiveness/absolution of sin part of worship?
    1. The comprehensive answer to the first part of question 1 would probably include the entire contents of this thread after the index has been filled. I recommend you take a look at number 2 on the index of this thread for now (The Essence of Islam), as it gives a concise summary of expectations from Muslims in terms of belief and worship.

    2. This is a good question. I will attempt an answer to number 2 and the rest of number 1 soon.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 16-08-2017 at 10:55 AM.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    1. The comprehensive answer to the first part of question 1 would probably include the entire contents of this thread after the index has been filled. I recommend you take a look at number 2 on the index of this thread for now (The Essence of Islam), as it gives a concise summary of expectations from Muslims in terms of belief and worship.

    2. This is a good question. I will attempt an answer to number 2 and the rest of number 1 soon, but in the meantime, you may be interested to read the Gospel of Barnabas on Judgment Day (GB, from chapter 50 onward)? While not regarded as a source by Muslims (its authenticity is unclear), the GB makes explicit reference to Prophet Muhammad, and often refers to him as the Messenger of God. This is not directly related to the question though.
    Thanks for the links. Sorry for having to repeat yourself on question 1. Laziness is strong in this one.
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  9. #129

    Default The Islamic Concept of Salvation

    Main > Q&A > The Islamic Concept of Salvation


    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    Mineer just pointed my attention to the fact that Islam doesn't follow the Christian belief of original sin.
    Correct. All humans are born in a state of fitra (innocence/purity). Every individual is responsible for his/her own beliefs and actions, and sins cannot be passed on to anyone else.

    2. Christian doctrine insists people can't live without sin and would therefor be doomed if they don't accept Jesus as saviour.
    The Islamic concept of God attributes to Him complete omnipotence, to the point where He can forgive all sins without the (absurd notion of) killing/crucifying an innocent.

    Senior Muslim Scholar, Timothy Winter, says the following:

    ...there are other implications of Trinitarian doctrine which concern Muslims. Perhaps one should briefly mention our worries about the doctrine of Atonement, which implies that God is only capable of really forgiving us when Jesus has borne our just punishment by dying on the cross. John Hick has remarked that 'a forgiveness that has to be bought by full payment of the moral debt is not in fact forgiveness at all.' More coherent, surely, is the teaching of Jesus himself in the parable of the prodigal son, who is fully forgiven by his father despite the absence of a blood sacrifice to appease his sense of justice. The Lord's Prayer, that superb petition for forgiveness, nowhere implies the need for atonement or redemption.

    Jesus' own doctrine of God's forgiveness as recorded in the Gospels is in fact entirely intelligible in terms of Old Testament and Islamic conceptions. 'God can forgive all sins', says the Quran...
    (see full article)

    Many scholars are of the view that the Christian doctrine of Atonement was an innovation likely introduced by Paul and some other persons. The most stringent modern attempts at scholarly translations/editions of the Bible based on the oldest available manuscripts have virtually eliminated all literal references to these types of concepts (Trinity, Atonement, divinity of Christ - see biblegateway.com for comparative readings), allowing for doctrinal shifts much closer to Islam (and Judaism). This would make sense, as all three monotheistic traditions claim to have the same Source. While the potential does exist, these shifts however, are for the most part not taking place.

    Do Muslims believe they can live without sin
    Human nature is such that we do both sinning (disobedience) and submission (obedience). This dual nature is explained in greater detail in Topic 5.2.1: Jesus Christ, the Messiah. However, it is possible for an individual to attain a certain station of sainthood characterised by the absence of sin, but not without the continued capacity for sin or to fall from this station. Sainthood represents the highest level to which humans can aspire, but the reality is that few ever reach that station of being a true one. While this potential does exist within every human being, the scholars explain that God well understands that which He creates, and He does not expect that we will all be true ones, but that we should at least keep their company:

    "O you who believe, be conscious of God and be with the true ones." (Quran 9:119)

    So humans can indeed reach this purified state (to be without sin), but the majority do not. Sainthood is a special station that all should strive for, but in general terms, even committed Muslims do not live completely without sin.

    - or is forgiveness/absolution of sin part of worship?
    God commands correct belief and action. However, this is not what will determine salvation. God's Mercy is the only way in which any soul can be saved, and Muslims are required to have hope in God's Mercy:

    "...never give up hope of God's Mercy: truly no one despairs of God's Mercy, except those who disbelieve." (Quran 12:87)

    "Say: O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of God. Indeed, God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 39:53)

    "And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself, but then seeks forgiveness from God, he will find God forgiving and merciful." (Quran 4:110)

    When seeking forgiveness, one is required to be sincere, remorseful, and intend never to repeat the wrong. In summary, correct belief and action is pivotal in winning God's pleasure and avoiding His wrath, but we are required to have hope in His infinite oceans of Mercy for salvation.

    continued below...
    Last edited by wayfarer; 16-08-2017 at 11:00 AM.

  10. #130
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    Thank you thusfar, wayfarer, for a very enlightening thread.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyD View Post
    Thank you thusfar, wayfarer, for a very enlightening thread.
    Yeah I agree,myself being a Muslim don't agree with one or two of wayfarers viewpoints but thats exactly what he was saying earlier we don't all HAVE to agree on the minor aspects in Islam.Your faith in Allah is what is ultimately important.Thats not for any other human to question.The major guidelines are quite clear though no matter which school of thought you come from.

    To give you an idea of what i'm talking about I am not wahabi and I don't celebrate the prophets birthday since he didn't promote it during his lifetime.But if others are then I don't see a problem with them doing so since he didn't forbid it either.

  12. #132

    Default Who are saved? Who was the first Muslim?

    ...continued from above

    In Islam it is believed that the very first hominid that possessed a soul was called Adam, and he was gifted with prophethood. So submission to God (in Arabic, the word for submission to God is islam) is likely to be 200 000 years old.

    1. What of those who lived before the time of Prophet Muhammad?

    Those who lived before Prophet Muhammad cannot be expected to have professed belief in him. However, God did send prophets and messengers, such as Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Moses, (these that I mention are all Semites, but there are numerous others as well) etc., and it is expected that whatever nations received prophets, that these nations would be expected to follow them. But through the course of time, the message becomes lost, and the people are then not blameworthy.

    God says in the Quran, relating to this:

    To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Quran 10:47)
    and
    For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve God, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom God guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). (Quran 16:36)
    and
    Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee; and it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by God's leave, but when God's commandment cometh (the cause) is judged aright, and the followers of vanity will then be lost. (Quran 40:78)

    So those before Prophet Muhammad's (or Jesus') time have access to redemption.

    2. What of those who lived during the time of Prophet Muhammad, (or any of the earlier prophets) but nevertheless, did not affirm belief in God and in him?

    Easy answer: no, they are not automatically exempted from redemption. For instance, there may be some peoples who lived in isolated villages somewhere, or on remote islands, and to this very day, may not have received the message. They are seen as not blameworthy.

    3. What of those who have received the message , but from poor (bad) or hypocritical ambassadors of the Faith, such as from the likes of Bin Laden?

    It is virtually impossible, today, for people to claim that the message of Islam did not reach them. However, often this message has been perverted beyond recognition, and only the insane or criminally-minded would buy into it in it's polluted form. In reality then, there exists many who have not received the true message, and these people are also not blameworthy for not affirming belief in God and his messenger, Prophet Muhammad. They have ready access to redemption, and God will determine their final outcome. (There also those non-Muslims who are honest and sincere devotees to their alternative guidance, albeit misguidance when viewed via the Islamic paradigm. It may very well be that God's mercy extends to them as well.)

    4. What does the Quran say about how non-Muslims can be viewed by God?

    Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 5:69)
    and
    Among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) there are some who believe in God and in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them, and who are humble before God. They do not sell God's signs for a paltry price. Such people will have their reward with their Lord. And God is swift at reckoning. (Quran, 3:199)
    and
    ... There is a community among the People of the Book who are upright. They recite God's signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. You will not be denied the reward for any good thing you do. God knows those who guard against evil. (Quran, 3:113-115)

    Finally, it needs to be said that no person (Muslim or not) can say with arrogant certainty that they have been excluded from the Fire, as that knowledge belongs to God alone, and we are all in need of His Mercy. He has blessed us with guidance, and promised us success in this world and in the next if we follow it. "Verily, He is our Source, and verily, unto Him is our return." (Quran 1:156)

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    Last edited by wayfarer; 09-07-2016 at 12:32 PM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    @Ghoti.... Why so much hatred towards Muhammed???
    You just made that up.

    I dont hate him any more of less than other religion starters like Jesus, Joseph Smith or L Ron Hubbard. All of them have the same historic interest for me, but thats about it. You are confusing someone having a different opinion to yourself as an attack on your Muhammed. Your religion makes you do that. Another reason I dislike what all these men started. It makes people lie.

    Dont worry, I know your religion makes you do this. When I am critical of scientology I am often asked, "why do you hate scientology?", "Why do you hate hubbard?" and "what are your crimes?". So you are only doing exactly what other religious adherents like scientologists do.

    Hubbard... Muhammed....Joseph Smith... Baby Jesus... meh. Just people who invented their own religions. I dont hate any of those men.
    Last edited by ghoti; 06-09-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
    Hubbard... Muhammed....Joseph Smith... Baby Jesus... meh. Just people who invented their own religions. I dont hate any of those men.
    OK so it seems you think you know enough about all the Religions.

    Since this thread is about Islam, tell me what did Prophet Muhammad gain from 'Inventing' Islam ? And when i say gain, I mean personal gain.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaTcH21 View Post
    OK so it seems you think you know enough about all the Religions.

    Since this thread is about Islam, tell me what did Prophet Muhammad gain from 'Inventing' Islam ? And when i say gain, I mean personal gain.
    Could you please start a new PD thread with for that? It would be a shame if this thread is derailed.

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