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Thread: Introduction to Islam

  1. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyD View Post
    Could you please start a new PD thread with for that? It would be a shame if this thread is derailed.
    Thats not my intention at all. I just want Ghoti to answer the question Im asking in a diginified manner. If he cant do that then he might as well ignore the question.

  2. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaTcH21 View Post
    Thats not my intention at all. I just want Ghoti to answer the question Im asking in a diginified manner. If he cant do that then he might as well ignore the question.
    Take to PM. Where it belongs.
    Mag jou mes chip en verbrysel / May thy knife chip and shatter

  3. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Correct. All humans are born in a state if fitra (innocence/purity). Every individual is responsible for his/her own beliefs and actions, and sins cannot be passed on to anyone else.
    I find this very interesting seems that Islam shares some of ideas taught in Theurgy. Especially using divine works to rework your way back to God.
    Mag jou mes chip en verbrysel / May thy knife chip and shatter

  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pr⊕phet View Post
    I find this very interesting seems that Islam shares some of ideas taught in Theurgy. Especially using divine works to rework your way back to God.
    I think that where the overlaps may lie is with the concept of the cyclical journey from and back to God. God created us in the Divine presence, then veiled Himself from us (by means of the material world), and then through correct belief, practices and sincere devotions, we strive for a return to direct awareness of his Omnipresence.

    In this thread, I have made reference to Iman (faith/belief) and Islam (here, Islam does not mean the religion, but Islamic practice based on the 5 pillars). However, if you have read my post on the Essence of Islam, you would have noticed that it includes a third component, i.e. Ihsan. Ihsan includes excellence in social interactions and informs the self-purifying efforts to reach God. Correct belief and action (Iman and Islam's 5 pillars) will then constitute the essential foundational launchpad for Ihsan. This entails engaging in Jihad-an-Nafs, or battle against the self, and according to Prophet Muhammad, this is the Greatest Battle of them all. It entails striving, within oneself, to reign in worldliness/materialism, pride, heedlessness and other base desires (such as the "cardinal sins").

    Unfortunately, there are some, especially amongst the extremists and wahhabis, for whom the religion is no more than literal applications of Iman and Islam's 5 pillars, with little or no attention given to Ihsan and inward meanings. Ihsan is about sincerity in devotion, which is the topic of Islamic spirituality, and forms what most mainstream scholars refer to as the core of Islam.

    But Pr⊕ph, you're pre-empting a topic that is supposed to come much later in the index of topics

    Read (external):

    Last edited by wayfarer; 07-09-2012 at 09:54 PM.

  5. #140

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    Mohammaed on his commercial journeys to Syria and Palestine he became acquainted with Jews and Christians, and acquired an imperfect knowledge of their religion and traditions

    The sources of Mohammed's biography are numerous, but on the whole untrustworthy, being crowded with fictitious details, legends, and stories. None of his biographies were compiled during his lifetime, and the earliest was written a century and a half after his death. The Koran is perhaps the only reliable source for the leading events in his career. His earliest and chief biographers are Ibn Ishaq (A.H. 151=A.D. 768), Wakidi (207=822), Ibn Hisham (213=828), Ibn Sa'd (230=845), Tirmidhi (279=892), Tabari (310-929), the "Lives of the Companions of Mohammed", the numerous Koranic commentators [especially Tabari, quoted above, Zamakhshari 538=1144), and Baidawi (691=1292)], the "Musnad", or collection of traditions of Ahmad ibn Hanbal (241=855), the collections of Bokhari (256=870), the "Isabah", or "Dictionary of Persons who knew Mohammed", by Ibn Hajar, etc. All these collections and biographies are based on the so-called Hadiths, or "traditions", the historical value of which is more than doubtful.
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm

    I suggest you stick to yor topic of Introduction to Islam and keep off the topic of the christain trinty and religon

  6. #141

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    so many trolls. so few bridges.
    The causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them. Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Idiot

  7. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    But Pr⊕ph, you're pre-empting a topic that is supposed to come much later in the index of topics

    Read (external):

    1. mysticsism

    i was going to ask about mysticism and attempts to distil motifs and deeper meanings behind certain scriptural narrative. the jews have kabbalah. christians seem to have had a complicated relationship with mysticism. what is sufism? is that up on the radar for this thread?

    2. in defence of final revelation / alternate revelation

    i also wanted to know about how muslims defend against the prophet as the final prophet. in much the same way that christianity is an offshoot which asserts new revelation but eschews subsequent revelation, does islam have latter offshoots like christianity has mormonism or jehova's witnesses? also, why does god have to use a guy on a mountain, a fisherman in a far off village, or a man in a cave to give revelation to and not just write in a cloud in the sky or something?

    3. the words of jesus

    you mentioned jesus and his words. do some of these appear in the quran? are they revelatory, recited or quoted as first person (oral transmission). how do we know the veracity of these words if they were written so long after the time. i'm trying to understand how these would not seem heretical for a christian.

    4. politics

    there seems to be a long history of theocracy when it comes to islam. possibly due to the western influence you've already alluded to. possibly due to the immaturity of politics and lack of nation-states within the arabian peninsula, partly due to lower population densities. i.e. tribalism and religion intertwined. it is conspicuous because it persists, whereas christian theocracies aren't much tolerated any more. can there be such a thing as a secular democracy with a muslim majority? or would all muslims want theocracy ultimately? is this not the identity crisis which the arab spring has caused? by theocracy i mean a specific god is in the constitution, taught in schools etc, with criminal acts defined by a religious book and the political head is also seen as a spriritual leader.
    Last edited by murraybiscuit; 08-09-2012 at 12:16 PM.
    The causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them. Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Idiot

  8. #143

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    ...
    Tossed

  9. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by murraybiscuit View Post
    1. mysticsism

    i was going to ask about mysticism and attempts to distil motifs and deeper meanings behind certain scriptural narrative. the jews have kabbalah. christians seem to have had a complicated relationship with mysticism. what is sufism? is that up on the radar for this thread?

    ...
    murray, I have board exams coming up, so please be patient if I do not immediately get to the rest of your post . Nevertheless, the quick answer to question 1 is that sufism is Islamic spirituality, and this is the core of mainstream Islam. Correct belief and practice of the 5 pillars are not ends within themselves, but they are the necessary equipment for the spiritual journey. They form the foundation/launchpad for the return to the Divine. There are, however, heretical "sufis" who attempt the inward journey without the commitment to the outward practices, and such people are wholly misguided.

    Sufism is not seen as an entity or practice distinct from mainstream Islam, but it is in fact one of the essential Islamic sciences, and the personalities who brought Islam to South Africa in the late 1600s (as exiles or slaves of the Dutch) were great scholars of sufism (and other Islamic sciences). One of the hallmarks of violent/extreme Muslim deviations is that they have discarded sufism or interpreted it in a way that it becomes meaningless.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 10-11-2012 at 02:09 PM.

  10. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by murraybiscuit View Post
    2. in defence of final revelation / alternate revelation

    i also wanted to know about how muslims defend against the prophet as the final prophet.
    "Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam for your religion. But whosoever is constrained in emptiness and not inclining purposely to sin - God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." (Quran 5:3)

    "...O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand the words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words even better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed Your message to Your people." (Hadith)

    Islam is the final restatement of God's revelatory messages to humankind. What this means is that:
    • No new message will come or needs to come.
    • No new messenger will come or needs to come.
    • No new prophet will come or needs to come.

    This is in part due to the fact that:
    • The Quran remains preserved in its originally revealed state.
    • The Quran will continue to exist in the authentic form indefinitely.
    • Literate societies exist in virtually every nation on earth, and are located across the globe, facilitating direct access to God's Speech (the Quran).
    • The Message is the primordial, timeless message, and the religion it produces is the primordial, timeless religion.

    ... in much the same way that christianity is an offshoot which asserts new revelation but eschews subsequent revelation
    Muslims find this strange, thinking that Christians would be awaiting the comforter and his message, as the New Testament quotes Jesus Christ:
    "Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you. And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not in me... I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come." (John 16)

    ... does islam have latter offshoots like christianity has mormonism or jehova's witnesses?
    Yes it does, like the Ahmadiyyah and Bahai, but there is no new revelation in the class of the Quran, or different versions of the Quran for these movements. These movements amongst themselves have further splits and offshoots. Some claim to have further prophets or incarnations of God, but these are very small in number, all offshoots put together just about make up 1-2% in comparison to the number of Muslims.

    also, why does god have to use a guy on a mountain, a fisherman in a far off village, or a man in a cave to give revelation to and not just write in a cloud in the sky or something?
    Good question: why a man on a mountain -why not just engrave it in a mountain? Remember that the Quran is God's Speech, an attribute of God Himself, and the Quran itself states:

    "Had We sent down this Quran on a mountain, verily, thou wouldst have seen it humble itself and cleave asunder for fear of God. Such are the similitudes which We propound to men, that they may reflect." (Quran 59:21)

    "And it is not for any human being that God should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise. And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path - The path of God, to whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Unquestionably, to God do [all] matters evolve." (Quran 42:51-53)

    “Neither the earth, nor the entire universe can contain Me, but the heart of a believer can." (Hadith)

    Thus is the Speech of God revealed to the hearts of the greatest amongst the believers, messengers such as Prophet Muhammad, and not to any other created thing.

    Other important reasons that God chooses messengers and prophets from amongst human beings:
    • We can relate to human beings more easily than clouds.
    • The messengers of God are imbued with the spiritual power of the Message, and this facilitates them to exemplify and operationalise that which has been revealed into their hearts.
    • It is a form of blessing and honour for humanity that its representatives are chosen as the receptacles of God's Speech.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 10-11-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    I suggest you stick to yor topic of Introduction to Islam and keep off the topic of the christain trinty and religon
    Did you miss the part where wayfarer pointed out that it is an important part of Islamic belief and is clearly stated in the Quraan?
    If you have come to find out about Islam then do so dont try to hijack the thread with your own beliefs.

    EDIT:aah I see wayfarer did the right thing
    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post

  12. #147

    Default 5.3. Belief in Divinely Revealed Books (Part 1/2)

    Main > Belief/Faith > Belief in the Divinely Revealed Books


    Since the advent of humanity, God sent prophets to guide, admonish and inspire people, leading them out of darkness and into the light. He also sent Messages (Books/Scripture) with various Messengers. The Quran names 4 Books that were divinely revealed:

    1. The Quran and its compilation

    "Indeed, this Quran guides to that which is most suitable and gives good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a great reward." (Quran 17:9)

    "And We have sent down to you the Book as clarification for all things, and as guidance and mercy, and good tidings for those who submit." (Quran 16:89)

    "And with the truth We have sent the Quran down, and with the truth it has descended." (Quran 17:105)

    "And it is not for any human being that God should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High, Most Wise." (Quran 42:51)

    The Quran, as the literal word of God, is the primary source for faith and practice. It provides essential guidance for humanity as to:

    • One's relationship with God's creation. This includes prescribing excellence for familial and social interactions, respect for non-human biotic environmental components such as other animals and plants, as well as responsibility for the abiotic components such as the mountains, seas and minerals, etc.
    • One's relationship with oneself. This includes encouraging self-respect, self-restraint, moral virtue and Ihsan.
    • One's relationship with God. People are inspired to submit to (and worship), know and love God.

    Prophet Muhammad was an unlettered man - he could not read or write. God gradually revealed the Quran to Prophet Muhammad via Angel Gabriel over a period of about 23 years. The process of Prophet Muhammad preserving the Quran in written form involved him reciting it to specifically chosen scribes (Zayd ibn Thabit being a senior one). These scribes recorded every word and read it back to Prophet Muhammad numerous times for error-checking. Multiple scribes would be present at these sittings. Some verses had meanings that were not immediately apparent, nevertheless they were God's Words and had to be recorded verbatum.

    The Quran was written down in its entirety and approved by Prophet Muhammad during his lifetime, but it was not bound into a single Book. Also, thousands of Prophet Muhammad's companions memorised the entire Quran and recited it back to him for confirmation of accuracy. The written unbound Quran was eventually bound and made widely available less than two decades after the Prophet's death. Uthman, the 3rd caliph, entrusted Zaid ibn Thabit with the task of leading a commissioned committee in the careful and meticulous execution of this process (also known as the Uthmanic recension). During this time many unofficial scribes (or passers-by who had informerly written down what they happened to hear of Prophet Muhammad's Quranic recitation) checked their respective versions against the original, and erroneous variations were discarded or corrected. This was necessary because the informal scribes did not always engage in the initial stringent error-checking processes.

    Copies of the original were made and sent to various Muslim centres, where the error-checking process continued. Recent archaelogical finds have uncovered some Quranic parchments that date back to the period as early as 15 years after Prophet Muhammad's death, which predates the Uthmanic recension. While these parchments did not undergo the official error-checking processes with the senior scribes of Prophet Muhammad, the main differences from the original seem to be that some of the verses are ordered differently when compared to the verse order as instructed by Prophet Muhammad. However, according to the researchers, the general meanings are the same. Some Western orientalists critical of Islam have suggested that perhaps these discovered parchments are actually closer to the true original than the version Muslims have today, and some have said that this proves that the Quran was an evolving document. However, there is only one single version of the Quran in existence. There is absolute consensus amongst the scholars of Islam that the Quran in use today is identical to the Quran revealed to Prophet Muhammad.

    continued in next post...
    Last edited by wayfarer; 10-11-2012 at 02:35 PM.

  13. #148

    Default 5.3. Belief in Divinely Revealed Books (Part 2/2)

    ...continued from previous post

    2. The Gospel/Evangel (Injil)

    "Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy." (Quran 57:27)

    "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God." (Quran 5:46)

    The Gospel is God's Word revealed directly to (the heart of) Jesus Christ. The Gospel was never literally committed into written form in its entirety, but Jesus Christ orally disseminated the teachings of this Message to his followers. The Gospel that was revealed to Jesus Christ is distinct from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. However, it is generally assumed that some of Jesus Christ's teachings from his Gospel were recorded by various persons, and included into what is the present day New Testament. Modern revisions of the New Testament, where some obviously fabricated verses have been omitted, have resulted in new New Testament versions that now espouse a doctrine that is closer to that of both the Torah and the Quran.

    3. The Psalms (Zabur)

    "We have sent thee (O Muhammad) inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms." (Quran 4:163)

    The Psalms Book was revealed to King David, and is said be comprised of some timeless theology, wisdom and devotions, consistent with that of the other revealed Books. The Psalms that is presently part of the Bible is regarded as being derived from the Psalms revealed to King David, but it is generally understood that some of the current Psalms are later additions.

    4. The Torah/Law (Tawrat)

    "And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers." (Quran 2:87)

    "Surely We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light; thereby the Prophets who had surrendered themselves gave judgement for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portion of God's Book as they were given to keep and were witnesses to. So fear not men, but fear you Me; and sell not My signs for a little price. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down - they are the unbelievers." (Quran 5:44)

    The original Torah, revealed to Prophet Moses, is generally associated with the "5 Books", or Pentateuch. While it is understood that it suffered corruption over the centuries, the monotheistic creed espoused by the present day Torah is strikingly similar to that of the Quran.

    Other revealed texts

    The Quran names 4 Divinely revealed Books, but this certainly does not exclude the possibility of there being more. The Quran further makes reference to certain very early Scrolls/Pages which were revealed to Prophet Abraham, and to Prophet Moses (in addition to the Torah). But these scrolls are not regarded as fully fledged Books in the sense that the above four are. See below:

    "Prosperous is he who has purified himself, and mentions the Name of his Lord, and prays. Nay, but you prefer the worldly life; but the Hereafter is better, and more enduring. Surely this is in the former scrolls, the scrolls of Abraham and Moses." (Quran 87:14-19)

    "...Or has he not been told of what is in the scrolls of Moses, and Abraham, who fulfilled his obligations? That no soul laden bears the load of another, and that a man shall have to his account only as he has laboured, and that his labouring shall surely be seen, then he shall be recompensed for it with the fullest recompense, and that the final end is unto thy Lord..." (Quran 53:36-42)

    View:
    Last edited by wayfarer; 08-05-2013 at 12:18 PM.

  14. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by murraybiscuit View Post
    3. the words of jesus

    you mentioned jesus and his words. do some of these appear in the quran?
    When I mention Jesus Christ's words, I normally give the reference. In most cases it would be from the Quran, unless a Christian view is being compared, in which case it would be a New Testament reference.

    are they revelatory, recited or quoted as first person (oral transmission). how do we know the veracity of these words if they were written so long after the time.
    Every single letter of the Quran is revelatory, revealed to Prophet Muhammad, who had scribes record it verbatum. Everything in the Quran, including the parts where the Quran quotes God Himself, Jacob, Jesus, even Satan or anyone else, is God's Speech. The Quran contains both direct and indirect speech, but every part of it is God's spoken word, verbalised by Angel Gabriel to Prophet Muhammad, and inducing a spiritual resonance in the Prophet's heart. No part of the Quran was authored by Prophet Muhammad or anyone else in creation. Exactly as Prophet Muhammad received the revelation, so did he recite it to the scribes. No part of the Quran is apocryphal or from any other source.

    i'm trying to understand how these would not seem heretical for a christian.
    I think it would necessarily seem heretical to Christianity; after all, Christianity is not Islam, but they do have a largely common legacy.

    The Quran corrects and abrogates the earlier corrupted texts. This means that the Quran would view these earlier texts as having become heretical (after having been polluted by the human hand through the course of time). However, the corrupted texts have become a point of reference for its followers, thus from the point of view of the corrupted texts, the Quran is heretical.

  15. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon786 View Post
    Did you miss the part where wayfarer pointed out that it is an important part of Islamic belief and is clearly stated in the Quraan?
    If you have come to find out about Islam then do so dont try to hijack the thread with your own beliefs.

    EDIT:aah I see wayfarer did the right thing
    I have no problem with wayfarers thread as long as he sticks to explaining Islam, however when he starts pontificating about Christianity and the Holy trinity then it is a attack on my faith.

    1. Arguments Tossed from Intro to Islam (obviating derails)
    In order to prevent derailing and tangential debates from interfering with the flow and progress of the Introduction to Islam thread, I have created this one. Questions will generally be answered in the original thread, but arguments that become tangential or are of little/no academic value will be redirected here.

    The "Aisha's age" post has been updated for the purposes of clarity and coherence, and as we have already moved on, any further comments should rather take place here.
    As for the above, most Christian debates are subject to the same thing , so deal with it.

    What makes this thread so special that it deserves special treatment

    If you canít deal with it, well no one is forcing you to stay and try and educate us Kafirs

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