You should join our great online community now - you can win great prizes
Register now
You should subscribe to our free MyBroadband newsletter


+ Reply to Thread
Page 14 of 66 FirstFirst ... 4101112131415161718 24 64 ... LastLast
Results 196 to 210 of 988

Thread: Introduction to Islam

  1. #196

    Default

    This islam vs the rest is one of perspective.

    What islam values, the rest of the world despises.

    What the rest of the world holds as the key to modern civilization, islam despises.

    These two perspectives are irreconcilable.

    Neither side will change their values, nor should they.

    The strongest and best set of ideas will prevail.

    If natural selection worked so well during biological evolution, we should allow the same process in social and political evolution.

  2. #197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyrock View Post
    ...What the rest of the world holds as the key to modern civilization, islam despises...
    Hi Boyrock. Thank you for your comments.

    Statements like the one above are churned by the classical "clash of civilizations" argument. I will present a response soon.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 10-11-2012 at 06:14 PM.

  3. #198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyrock View Post
    This islam vs the rest is one of perspective.

    What islam values, the rest of the world despises.

    What the rest of the world holds as the key to modern civilization, islam despises.

    These two perspectives are irreconcilable.

    Neither side will change their values, nor should they.

    The strongest and best set of ideas will prevail.

    If natural selection worked so well during biological evolution, we should allow the same process in social and political evolution.
    Apologies for the late reply. I initially intended to construct a detailed reply regarding Islam, enlightenment, modernity and primordiality, but I have decided to leave such an essay/treatise for much later in the thread, probably after dealing with the topic of "Islamic history" as per the index. So I will not deal with questions on this topic at this time. However, I hope that the following explanation will do for now:

    The "clash of civilizations" argument espoused by the war-hysterical right-wing extremist conservatives has been debunked by many scholars, Muslim and non-Muslim. However, the fact that there are some among the laity who are not extremists but still support this argument is understandable, given the Western media bias. The following points are relevant here:

    1. Islam is sometimes confused, by westerners, for its extremist deviations. It is ironic that in the West the term Islam has come to refer to the less-than-3% who make up the extremist deviant groups (with their distinct doctrine and practice), and not the over 90% who make up the traditional Muslim group. One can then ask the question: which "Islamic" values are being referred to?

    2. In the piece quoted above, it is implied that social and political evolution/change/progression is absent in Islam. This claim belies the political and social reality of some Muslim nation states, as well as ignores the entire (ongoing) Arab spring in the Middle East and northern Africa, which dominated the news media for quite some time recently.

    3. Within the Shariah, there are aspects that are mutable (changeable/adaptable/evolveable) and other aspects which are immutable (fixed). The fixed aspects include those to do with core values and standards of morality. These are the primordial values that have existed since the time of Adam; the balanced set of values to which humanity has returned to time and time again after periodic stints of digression. Sometimes it was social impetus that effected the return to this norm, and sometimes the return was inspired by divinely chosen prophets. What some in the West regard as a forward evolving western value system, is in actual fact the pendulum swinging away from its median position, ever destined to return to the primordial and perennial equilibrium. We are witnessing inconsistencies between the value systems of the West and mainstream Islam precisely because the West is deviating from the moderate path walked and timeless values espoused by the likes of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc.

    Muslim scholar, Timothy Winter, says:

    "It is not that we are extreme. It is not we who destroyed the bridge. We are simply holding to the norms generally recognised by our species for 99% of its history. It is the West that is extreme, that has grown strange, that seems to have gone mad." (Sunna as Primordiality, T. Winter)
    Last edited by wayfarer; 11-10-2012 at 07:16 PM.

  4. #199
    Super Grandmaster Nerfherder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    /\/ŻŻŻŻŻŻ\/\
    Posts
    22,294

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Apologies for the late reply. I initially intended to construct a detailed reply regarding Islam, enlightenment, modernity and primordiality, but I have decided to leave such an essay/treatise for much later in the thread, probably after dealing with the topic of "Islamic history" as per the index. So I will not deal with questions on this topic at this time. However, I hope that the following explanation of will do for now:

    The "clash of civilizations" argument espoused by the war-hysterical right-wing extremist conservatives has been debunked by many scholars, Muslim and non-Muslim. However, the fact that there are some among the laity who are not extremists but still support this argument is understandable. The following points are relevant here:

    1. Islam is sometimes confused, by westerners, for its extremist deviations. It is ironic that in the West the term Islam has come to refer to the less-than-3% who make up the extremist deviant groups (with their distinct doctrine and practice), and not the over 90% who make up the mainstream. One can then ask the question: which "Islamic" values are being referred to?

    2. In the piece quoted above, it is implied that social and political evolution/change/progression is absent in Islam. This claim belies the political and social reality of some Muslim nation states, as well as ignores the entire (ongoing) Arab spring in the Middle East and northern Africa, which dominated the news media for quite some time recently.

    3. Within the Shariah, there are aspects that are mutable (changeable/adaptable/evolveable) and other aspects which are immutable (fixed). The fixed aspects are those to do with core values and standards of morality. These are the primordial values that have existed since the time of Adam - the balanced set of values to which humanity has returned to time and time again after periodic stints of digression. Sometimes it was a societal impetus that effected the return to this norm, and sometimes the return was inspired be divinely chosen prophets. What some in the West regard as a forward evolving western value system, is in actual fact the pendulum swinging from its median position, ever destined to return to the primordial and perennial equilibrium. We are witnessing inconsistencies between the value systems of the West and mainstream Islam precisely because the West is deviating from the moderate path walked and timeless values espoused by the likes of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc.

    Muslim scholar, Timothy Winter, says:

    "It is not that we are extreme. It is not we who destroyed the bridge. We are simply holding to the norms generally recognised by our species for 99% of its history. It is the West that is extreme, that has grown strange, that seems to have gone mad." (Sunna as Primordiality, T. Winter)

    I think you are pushing it a bit by saying that he implied radical Islam. Islam as a whole has some really archaic practices.

    Do only 3% of Muslims consider the Bhurka normal, this kind of thing is that creates divisions. You say we don't understand these practices, perhaps we don't but we live happy lives without them so to us they are unnecessary.

    I remember a South African documentary a while back about a gay couple wanting to get married. They were asking representatives of the various religions asking if they would be allowed to get married in their respective churches. Most of the churches *****footed around the question and then eventually gave either a yes or no answer. The Imam they interviewed was quite clear, he gave a single direct answer, "if we were allowed to stone you to death we would."

    That really stuck with me... its just so damming. People are changing all the time, views and ideas change, everything changes anyway but Islam is determined to work against progress.

    Change is inevitable and you need to work with it to stay relevant.
    "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." ~ Christopher Hitchens

    My idea of "Help from above" is a sniper on a roof.

  5. #200

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerfherder View Post
    I think you are pushing it a bit by saying that he implied radical Islam.
    I am not saying that.
    Islam as a whole has some really archaic practices.
    This is a claim that those who support deviations from the primordial, tried and tested, moderate path will always make.

    Do only 3% of Muslims consider the Bhurka normal, this kind of thing is that creates divisions. You say we don't understand these practices, perhaps we don't but we live happy lives without them so to us they are unnecessary.
    There are many amongst the extremists who do not regard the wearing of the face veil as being obligatory. (The only face veil wearer that I ever met happened to be a mainstream Muslim who was the principal of a local high school. Much to her husband's dismay, she insisted on wearing the veil as a personal expression of modesty.) While the wearing of the face veil is certainly not one of the fixed, balanced values I refer to, Islam differs from unreasonable societies in that it defends the right of a female to either wear or not wear the face veil, regardless of whether she is a Muslim, a ninja, or a Muslim ninja ().

    I remember a South African documentary a while back about a gay couple wanting to get married. They were asking representatives of the various religions asking if they would be allowed to get married... The Imam they interviewed was quite clear, he gave a single direct answer, "if we were allowed to stone you to death we would."
    I cannot answer for the crazy statement of the Imam, or why the media again sought to portray an extremist view as representing the mainstream. Homosexual feelings experienced by individuals are not taboo in and of itself. While Islam forbids actual homosexual relations as a societal inimicality, there is absolutely no precedent or Quranic injunction for punishing someone based on sexual orientation.

    That really stuck with me... its just so damming. People are changing all the time, views and ideas change, everything changes anyway but Islam is determined to work against progress.
    False. Islam is opposed to harmful deviation, and not to "progress". The shariah is organic, and there are aspects within it that do evolve, but Islam's benign, core values will forever stay the course and be vitally relevant.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 11-10-2012 at 12:23 PM.

  6. #201
    Karmic Sangoma ghoti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hotel California
    Posts
    43,957
    Blog Entries
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyrock View Post
    This islam vs the rest is one of perspective.

    What islam values, the rest of the world despises.

    What the rest of the world holds as the key to modern civilization, islam despises.

    These two perspectives are irreconcilable.

    Neither side will change their values, nor should they.

    The strongest and best set of ideas will prevail.

    If natural selection worked so well during biological evolution, we should allow the same process in social and political evolution.
    Survival of the fittest doesnt mean, "survival of the most blood thirsty or selfish". Working together as a team has proven more successful than individual selfishness. It also doesnt mean that one group has to annihilate another group to survive. There does not have to be a constant predator/prey relationship. Species do better in mutualistic relationships.
    Schrodingers immigrants : Simultaneously stealing your job and too lazy to work.

  7. #202

    Default

    Its darwinian law

  8. #203

    Default

    Wayfarer

    I never made a value judgement as to whether islam or the west has a better set of values.

    You don't need to defend islam or its values. It is no more or less valid than any other.

    I am just saying that Muslims should not try and make it seem as if islam is compatible with western values. It is not. You have said that the west has deviated far from the natural value system of man which by definition makes it incompatible with islam.

    I do not disagree. Western liberal values today are as much of an extremist ideology as any in history.

    Secular liberalism is a new ideology, even though its proponents will not admit to it being an ideology. It has as its goal to promote itself as the universal and only set of values that is compatible with modern civilization.

    Look at how it has destroyed all faiths. Christianity, Judaism, etc are all in decline worldwide. In its place is a secular humanist, mostly atheist ideology.

    Islam represents an extreme challenge as it is much more resistant, for whatever reason, to having its adherents embrace this new global value system.

    Clash is inevitable. I don't believe that either system has any superior moral legitimacy. Islam has created great civilizations, and those who say it is incompatible with civilization are being intellectually dishonest. It may have gone into decline relatively recently, but in the timespan of history, its time of dominance has been much greater than its time of decline.This is a war, between two ideologies, and lies and deceit are part of war. As human beings, we believe that the time we live in is the only reality, and that things have always been this way.

    If I were a betting man, I would say islam would be tough to overcome. I believe that muslim states will unite into a new empire, or a modern version such as an Islamic union.

    It's a great fight of ideas that makes very interesting observation. For a neutral, and those with an interest in how ideologies compete to become dominant, it's fascinating.

    Wayfarer, don't apologize for your religion or beliefs. Don't try to make it fit with the status quo. It is a competing world view point, and the dominant and stronger set of ideas will prevail. Just as there was a clash between communism and the west, today we have another human experiment in social organization unfolding before us. Diversity of ideas and competition is healthy. This is true even on the macro scale of social and political organization.

    It is beautiful to watch from a purely academic viewpoint.

    I say let the strongest prevail.

  9. #204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyrock View Post
    Wayfarer, I never made a value judgement as to whether islam or the west has a better set of values.
    You don't need to defend islam or its values. It is no more or less valid than any other.
    I do not believe that it is inappropriate for me to defend the primordial sacred values of my faith, and I do believe that is the most relevant and valid. Anyway, you later add the following remark, which is inconsistent with what you have just said:

    Wayfarer, don't apologize for your religion or beliefs. Don't try to make it fit with the status quo.
    I am not doing this. I am merely saying that some of the Western criticism of Islamic values is in fact misdirected at the mainstream (or Islam as a whole), when in fact it should be directed at the relatively small band of extremists.

    I am just saying that Muslims should not try and make it seem as if islam is compatible with western values. It is not. You have said that the west has deviated far from the natural value system of man which by definition makes it incompatible with islam. I do not disagree. Western liberal values today are as much of an extremist ideology as any in history. Secular liberalism is a new ideology, even though its proponents will not admit to it being an ideology. It has as its goal to promote itself as the universal and only set of values that is compatible with modern civilization.
    Earlier Codified Western values (before the pendulum commensed with its departure), such as those espoused by the "Founding Fathers" of the USA, are almost entirely compatible with the fundamental Islamic values. Turning our attention to the bolded part above - this is where Islam (and even pluralistic classical liberalism) differs from radical secular liberalism. While Islam holds its own values to be the most appropriate, timeless set specifically sanctioned by the divine, it does not believe that other values systems are not compatible with (modern) civilisation, and it especially does not believe that these differing values make a clash of civilisations inevitable.

    Secular liberalism is certainly growing in the West, and many governments have bought into it, but one cannot paint all citizens of the West with this brush. The West has its fair share of critics who recognise it for the harmful extremism that it is. I would argue that, for example, in the USA, the evangelical right-wing neo-cons are significantly more dominant than extreme secular liberals, although they are probably equally zealous (I would also include the Muslim extremists with these groups).

    A clash is possible, but certainly not inevitable. Personally, I do not think that extremism will prevail in Islam or in the West (I certainly hope that it will not). In the case of the West, I envisage that the pendulum will soon start its homeward motion. I am optimistic about the sensibilities of the human race, but if extremism does prevail, then indeed, the clash is a given.

    In numerous places in the Quran, God states that he deliberately created variation (with which we are tested), and He exhorts believers to respect differences, and to cooperate with others for the common good:

    "Help each other to goodness and heedfulness. Do not help each other to wrongdoing and enmity." (Quran 5:2)

    We are told to know/recognise each other:

    "O mankind, We have created you male and female, and appointed you nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is All-knowing, All-aware." (Quran 49:13)
    Last edited by wayfarer; 13-10-2012 at 01:55 PM.

  10. #205
    Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    /\/ŻŻŻŻŻ\/\
    Posts
    2,604

    Default

    If I may pipe in with an observation:

    It seems wayfarer is saying that Islam, as practiced by the "mainstream", is considerably more inclusive and accepting than the "extremist" Islam most often reported in the media.

    Is that correct? If so, can you perhaps give us a few examples demonstrating this? (Perhaps the Tossed thread would be a better place to respond.)

  11. #206
    Super Grandmaster ponder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    KZN Dolphin Coast
    Posts
    61,445

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon786 View Post
    Its generally viewed as acceptable by desperate people in desperate situations,its easy for us sitting here safe and comfortable in our country living life freely to criticize but desperate people think very differently to us.
    But usually those committing these acts are against freedom of thought, speech, religion etc?
    entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

  12. #207

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sodan View Post
    ...It seems wayfarer is saying that Islam, as practiced by the "mainstream", is considerably more inclusive and accepting than the "extremist" Islam most often reported in the media. Is that correct? If so, can you perhaps give us a few examples demonstrating this? (Perhaps the Tossed thread would be a better place to respond.)
    Tossed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ponder View Post
    But usually those committing these acts are against freedom of thought, speech, religion etc?
    Tossed.

  13. #208

    Default

    Am I the only one to look back at all abrahamic winged faiths and go "hmmm they seem the same to me is it possible that they are the same just translated in different languages and were culturised by its followers" ? Just an arb thought

  14. #209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RiaX View Post
    Am I the only one to look back at all abrahamic winged faiths and go "hmmm they seem the same to me is it possible that they are the same just translated in different languages and were culturised by its followers" ? Just an arb thought
    They have so much in common because they have the exact same Original Source. Check the Introduction post of this thread (post #2) which explains this matter clearly.

  15. #210

    Default 5.4. Belief in the Angels

    Main > Belief/Faith > Belief in the Angels


    "Angels can take any form in the physical world. As crystal water takes the form of the cup in which it is poured, angels can take the form of any creation which they visit. They do not retain their full original form of light when they are sent to human beings... They have a "mind" and a "heart", but no will and no desire other than to serve and obey God. They are never too proud to obey Him.

    Angels worship day and night without fatigue. They do not need to sleep, as their eyes never tire. They know no heedlessness. Their attention never wavers. Their food is glorification of God, their drink is to sanctify and to magnify Him. Their intimacy is in calling their Lord through hymning and singing His praise. Their enjoyment is to serve Him. They are devoid of any and all physiological restraints. They suffer no mood-changes...

    Angels are more knowledgeable than human beings. The teacher, again, is better than the student. Their knowledge is of two kinds: intellectual and traditional. "Intellectual" means here: of the essence of reality or "of the heart." "Traditional" means: revealed and translated down from above."


    (Japanese Muslim Scholar, Dr. Sachiko Murata. She wrote the above as a foreword to a book about angels in Islam.)

    God created angels to glorify, serve and worship Him unquestioningly. Whereas as humans have been created from clay and jinns (spirits) of smokeless fire, angels have been created from light. Angels are genderless, and make up different cosmic hierarchies and orders, varying according to size, form and status. There are billions of angels in existence. Their existence predates that of human beings.

    "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent (steward/deputy) on earth.” They said: “Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood, whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?” He said: “I know what ye know not.” (Quran 2:30)

    Angels are honoured, intelligent beings. A means by which God acts in creation is the facilitation of the performance of angels. The Christian/Western physical form in which angels are depicted is generally not accepted.

    The Archangels

    In terms of the hierarchical structure, four angels are on top and given special status. These are:

    Gabriel
    Gabriel is the angel of revelation, and is regarded as the greatest of all angels. Gabriel communicates divine messages to those that God designated to receive them. In most cases, prophets are the recipients of the messages, but the Quran also mentions communication between Gabriel (possibly representing angels, or leading a group of angels) and Mary, mother of Jesus Christ.

    "Behold! (a representative of) the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel'" (Quran 3:45-48).

    Michael
    Michael is responsible for matters such as certain aspects of weather, sustenance and earthly rewards.

    Raphael
    Raphael will be the trumpet blower. Raphael will blow the trumpet to signal the end of humanity's sojourn in the universe, signalling the end of all life. According to some scholars, thereafter even the archangels will be made to die. After an unknown, lengthy period of time, the archangels will be resurrected, and Raphael will again blow the trumpet, signalling the grand resurrection and the start of Judgement.

    Azrael (angel of death)
    Azrael heads the order of angels tasked with withdrawing the souls from the human bodies, causing death.

    Unconditional and unabating obedience

    “They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever slacken.” (Quran 21:20)

    The concept of a fallen angel is not consistent with Islamic theology. Angels have been created to be flawless, and do not have the capacity for sin or disobedience. Thus, the Christian idea of Lucifer having been an angel before falling from grace to become the accursed devil (Satan, sworn enemy of humankind), is not an acceptable notion.

    The devil is viewed as belonging to the jinn race. Jinns and humans are creatures with free will, possessing the capacity for both submission and disobedience. Angels are faithfully loyal, and cannot "fall" or choose to rebel.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 09-11-2012 at 07:09 PM.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 14 of 66 FirstFirst ... 4101112131415161718 24 64 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. My introduction
    By AnetteW in forum First Posts, Intros, Forum Questions
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 30-06-2012, 08:49 AM
  2. Introduction
    By ISman in forum First Posts, Intros, Forum Questions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 26-05-2012, 02:47 PM
  3. New introduction here
    By Monermajetomi in forum First Posts, Intros, Forum Questions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-04-2011, 10:27 AM
  4. Introduction...
    By Cybermoo in forum Apple Mac, iPad and iPhone
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 15-05-2008, 12:18 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •