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Thread: Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

  1. #151
    Ulysses Everett McGill OrbitalDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon786 View Post
    Riiight.....ok so you believe the USA is doing this for the afghan people.ROFLMAO Seriously orbital I know from your level of posts that you aren't that naive buddy and you probably doubt their intentions yourself but you then used those excuses about taliban oppressing people to justify the USA being there.

    How did you justify iraq to yourself?I'm sure at first it was the WOMD and then after that you just regarded the whole thing as stale so stopped thinking about it.Guess what,the USA lies and its been proven that it lies.What makes you so sure that they didn't lie about the taliban,for all i care it seems like the people themselves are the taliban by the look of things,there are reports of not knowing what your enemy looks like because anyone there is your enemy.
    Never said that. If you read my post properly you would have also seen I disagreed with and oppose the invasion. I'm saying the only semblance of civilisation that exists in Afghanistan today is because of Western intervention. Are you saying the USA are tyrants hellbent on oppressing the Afghan people? Are you cool with the Taliban's brutal reign that they so dearly wish to reinstate?

    I never justified the Iraq invasion, although I can't say I'm sad Hussein's regime is gone. He did use WMD's against the Kurdish people in his Al-Anfal genocide campaign. He slaughtered 198 000 people, started at least 2 large-scale wars against sovereign nations and continuously refused to cooperate with the UN or the Arab League. I know the US lies, and they have multiple high-ranking officials who I regard war criminals that should be tried in The Hague. Are you saying they invented the Taliban? Seriously? The Taliban (and Hezbollah and Hamas) routinely use civilians as human shields, including women and children. As usual, this is only met with slight, almost indifferent disapproval.


    Quote Originally Posted by falcon786
    Oh I like complaining about Syria too,what those bastards are doing to their people is pathetic,I wonder why in places where the people are really crying out for a Saviour the USA isn't helping,where nobody was calling them they ran in claiming to be heroes.
    Why is the world so silent on Syria,why is the world so silent on Zimbabwe?No money or resources in those countries so the people are not worth saving?Makes sense.

    Every week people are being massacred in Syria,I have a friend who is a pilot in Jordan and according to him we don't even here the half of whats happening in Syria.Our media is surprisingly not very interested anymore maybe its stale for them.
    Not stale for the people suffering there.
    So first you complain about the USA intervening, now you complain that they're not intervening? Damned if you, damned if you don't it would seem. The world isn't silent on Syria, Russia & China is. The same people who opposed removing Hussein are opposed to removing Assad, not that this stops you from having double standards, apparently.

    I find it interesting that only the USA are being vilified for their intervention. All through the Arab world people blow themselves up or protest violently against the evil West, but their own brothers in faith kill tens of thousands of people over the last year and it's met with deafening silence. Where's the Arab/Muslim protests against Assad's massacre of almost 30 000 people? They burn US flags, attack embassies, suicide bomb innocent people en masse, while the Syrian government visits wholesale slaughter on their own people, and the only response this elicits is someone on a forum saying it's bad before continuing to rant about how evil the USA is.

    By the way, Zimbabwe and Syria do have natural resources, lots of it. Zimbabwe has a crapload of platinum, while Syria has black gold. So much for that theory.
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

  2. #152
    Super Grandmaster falcon786's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrbitalDawn View Post
    Never said that. If you read my post properly you would have also seen I disagreed with and oppose the invasion. I'm saying the only semblance of civilisation that exists in Afghanistan today is because of Western intervention. Are you saying the USA are tyrants hellbent on oppressing the Afghan people? Are you cool with the Taliban's brutal reign that they so dearly wish to reinstate?

    I never justified the Iraq invasion, although I can't say I'm sad Hussein's regime is gone. He did use WMD's against the Kurdish people in his Al-Anfal genocide campaign. He slaughtered 198 000 people, started at least 2 large-scale wars against sovereign nations and continuously refused to cooperate with the UN or the Arab League. I know the US lies, and they have multiple high-ranking officials who I regard war criminals that should be tried in The Hague. Are you saying they invented the Taliban? Seriously? The Taliban (and Hezbollah and Hamas) routinely use civilians as human shields, including women and children. As usual, this is only met with slight, almost indifferent disapproval.
    Great,I'm glad you know what the USA is up to,I'm not saying they just in there to torture the afghan people, ofcourse not.That would be a net loss to them and a lot of work for nothing and I'm not saying the taliban don't exist,I'm saying they may not be as much of a minority as you think them to be and it seems like the people themselves are the taliban.How come until now they cant be stopped,its like they crawling out of the woodwork in Afghanistan.




    So first you complain about the USA intervening, now you complain that they're not intervening? Damned if you, damned if you don't it would seem. The world isn't silent on Syria, Russia & China is. The same people who opposed removing Hussein are opposed to removing Assad, not that this stops you from having double standards, apparently.

    I find it interesting that only the USA are being vilified for their intervention. All through the Arab world people blow themselves up or protest violently against the evil West, but their own brothers in faith kill tens of thousands of people over the last year and it's met with deafening silence. Where's the Arab/Muslim protests against Assad's massacre of almost 30 000 people? They burn US flags, attack embassies, suicide bomb innocent people en masse, while the Syrian government visits wholesale slaughter on their own people, and the only response this elicits is someone on a forum saying it's bad before continuing to rant about how evil the USA is.
    I'm actually more angry at the arab league for ignoring Syria,as its on their own back door not the USA's,but I only mentioned the USA because they are always eager to invade like iraq,afghanistan etc pretending to be heroes for the people but when there really is a people in need they don't do jack.Just pointing out their hypocrisy not actually calling them in case you haven't noticed.

    But yes this is the Arab league to blame,they have let down the people in Syria,they are too busy enjoying their mansions with super cars in underground basements and air-conditioned stables for their horses with grass in the middle of the dessert to even look up and help the people suffering in Syria.

  3. #153
    Ulysses Everett McGill OrbitalDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon786 View Post
    Great,I'm glad you know what the USA is up to,I'm not saying they just in there to torture the afghan people, ofcourse not.That would be a net loss to them and a lot of work for nothing and I'm not saying the taliban don't exist,I'm saying they may not be as much of a minority as you think them to be and it seems like the people themselves are the taliban.How come until now they cant be stopped,its like they crawling out of the woodwork in Afghanistan.
    The Taliban actually abducts children and indoctrinates them from a very early age, much like Joseph Kony and various other Warlords who use child soldiers. They are very difficult to defeat because they're not actually an official army. Armies have governments backing them, that represents and are accountable to the people of that country. Terrorist groups aren't accountable to anyone, so they can do whatever they please with impunity.

    Part of the reason why I think the invasion of Afghanistan was misguided is because the US/West isn't fighting a conventional war against a conventional army. You can't win a war of ideas by using missiles and tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon786
    I'm actually more angry at the arab league for ignoring Syria,as its on their own back door not the USA's,but I only mentioned the USA because they are always eager to invade like iraq,afghanistan etc pretending to be heroes for the people but when there really is a people in need they don't do jack.Just pointing out their hypocrisy not actually calling them in case you haven't noticed.

    But yes this is the Arab league to blame,they have let down the people in Syria,they are too busy enjoying their mansions with super cars in underground basements and air-conditioned stables for their horses with grass in the middle of the dessert to even look up and help the people suffering in Syria.
    Thing is, a policy of non-intervention is one that effectively grants despots like Assad free reign to do as they please. As long as Russia, China and the Arab League sticks to non-intervention, Assad will continue to massacre people. This is what happened in Kurdistan, as well. Hussein laughed when they implemented sanctions against them, because he doesn't care if his people suffer. He happily continued to use chemical weapons and visit wholesale slaughter upon the Kurds, because he knew no one would interfere. When he invaded Kuwait, which was the US's ally, and they responded, he got his ass handed to him. If the US had also said "no, we won't intervene", tens of thousands of more people would have been killed.

    So, what it boils down to is this: People who oppose the intervention in Iraq in effect are allowing people Hussein and Assad to butcher people as they please, because they know no one would be stopping them. If the Arab League uses their armed forces to oust Assad, do you think the result would be any different to what's happening now with the US in Iraq?
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

  4. #154
    Super Grandmaster falcon786's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrbitalDawn View Post
    The Taliban actually abducts children and indoctrinates them from a very early age, much like Joseph Kony and various other Warlords who use child soldiers.
    Or so we are told,I'm guessing many afghan parents willingly send their children to join em.
    You can't win a war of ideas by using missiles and tanks.
    Very true,this also sums up why I feel the afghan people willingly join the taliban rather than being abducted etc My point of view is that the taliban IS the afghan people.



    Hussein laughed when they implemented sanctions against them, because he doesn't care if his people suffer.
    Yep the sanctions that many are pushing against Assad will be pretty useless,the people cant rise up on their own because they don't have the weapons etc and Assad wont be personally affected by it much if anything at all.

    If the Arab League uses their armed forces to oust Assad, do you think the result would be any different to what's happening now with the US in Iraq?
    Aah but yes I feel it would be a huge difference because of one important aspect:There is alot of anti US sentiment in the middle east(and rightfully so) so the people regard the USA as outsiders but if the arabs themselves oust Assad then theres no doubt that the people will embrace the change since it will be seen as genuinely for the people and not for access to syrias resources etc.

  5. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodan View Post
    If I may pipe in with an observation:

    It seems wayfarer is saying that Islam, as practiced by the "mainstream", is considerably more inclusive and accepting than the "extremist" Islam most often reported in the media.

    Is that correct? If so, can you perhaps give us a few examples demonstrating this? (Perhaps the Tossed thread would be a better place to respond.)
    Spot on. One could use as example the fact that the Shariah includes within it specific dispensation to protect minority social/religious groups, and also that Islam is very active in interfaith initiatives, and in many cases, founders of these movements. Sustained efforts at this type of interaction/symbioses have come out of many traditional Muslim lands, such as well-known "acommonword.com" from Jordan.

    Furthermore, so much of what the west is critical of Islam for is actually misplaced, such as the idea of female education. Extremist Muslims are both racist and sexist, but traditional Muslims follow the instruction of Prophet Muhammad, in that it is explicitly mentioned that the pursuit of knowledge is an obligation upon both males and females - and every individual's "first school is his/her mother".

    According to UNESCO, Iran has the highest female to male primary education ratios in the world (F vs M rate of 1.22 for elementary school), and one of the highest for universities (60% are female, a point which really bothers sexist extremists in Iran!). Also, while radical evangelicals in the USA are vociferous in spreading misinformation about female education in Islam, seven Muslim countries have had female presidents in recent history, while the USA has had none, ever.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 09-11-2012 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Mistakenly had M vs F, when it should have been F vs M

  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by ponder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by falcon786 View Post
    Its generally viewed as acceptable by desperate people in desperate situations,its easy for us sitting here safe and comfortable in our country living life freely to criticize but desperate people think very differently to us.
    But usually those committing these acts are against freedom of thought, speech, religion etc?
    In some cases this is so, and some cases not. The point is that when people experience intense and sustained oppression/suppression, they become desperate and their societies become dysfunctional, and all sorts of social anomalies and harms begin to plague them, such as hitting back with suicide bombing or being extreme in other senses.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 15-10-2012 at 11:10 AM.

  7. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    of the 10 most dangerous countries in the world 8 ARE Islam countries. Topping the list is Somalia ,Pakistani then Sudan , Lebanon ,Syria , Yemen , Afghanistan , Uzbekistan and Algeria.
    Firstly, there are various lists about the dangerous countries in the world, some compiled by well-known intelligence or policy studies organisations/institutions, and these place the number of Muslim countries in the top 10 anywhere between 2 and 6. Some googling eventually produced your list, compiled in 2009, by staff of a Western-centric American tourism magazine, loosely based on travel warnings issued to US citizens by the US State Department.

    So this unreliable, inaccurate, unverified list is not in fact about dangerous countries per se, but about countries that the US State Department is cautiouning travellers/tourists about, given the USA's notoriority for engaging in wars of terror, aggression, and neo-colonial rape (often with European countries as its eager allies).

    Pakistan and Afghanistan have been turned upside-down by US aggression and indiscriminate bombing, and the US/NATO action pereptuates the turmoil in the region by near-daily drone attacks that kill significantly more civilians than resistance fighters.

    Sudan's unrest stems exclusively from socio-political circumstances (mainly the strife between the largely Muslim north, and more Christian south), with the country having now officially divided into two independent sovereign states.

    Syria is violent because the Alawite regime is brutally persecuting its Muslim citizens. Likewise, Uzbekistan's regime is slow to move away from its former anti-religious communist stance, as the State security entities engage in ruthless persecution of Muslim civil groups. The situation is worsened by the fact that there is a small band of Alqaeda type crazies in Uzbekistan.

    Algeria, as an ex-province of France (not just a colony!), has been robbed and pillaged like there was no tomorrow by the French until 1962 (resulting in 100,1000s of deaths). Algeria was then left to French loyalist puppets who ruled the country under brutal military rule for a lengthy period, making this region a breeding ground for militancy, including Muslim extremists. The unrest spread throughout the maghrib region, even reaching Somalia.

    These socio-economic and geo-political issues have very little, if anything, to do with Islam as a religion characterised by selfless surrender to God and service to humanity.

    Why is Islam synonymous with Poverty and Violence ? Wayferer i already know you are going to say they are different types of Islam and so on but 8 countries in different parts of the world are in the top ten of the most dangerous. There is something wrong with the religion man.
    An association of Islam with poverty and violence is a cognitive distortion of those donning opaque lead blinkers. No Muslim with whom I am acquainted, locally or abroad (in the Middle East or North Africa) could be described with the raw term: "violence". This is because the overwhelming majority of Muslims adhere to the mainstream, and are peace-loving people. However, there are indeed revolutions in progress (such as the Arab spring) and wars of resistance in some Muslim regions, and hence a degree of violence.

    And in terms of poverty: some of the wealthiest persons in the world are Muslim, and some of the poorest are too. However, it should be noted that it is not unusual for countries that suffer under the yoke of Western-backed dictatorships or Western colonialism to have large populations that are poverty stricken, and in some cases, these populations are also prone to violence.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 27-12-2012 at 03:56 PM.

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
    This is true, generally, the more religious a country is the worse off it is, so its not just limited to Islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by marine1 View Post
    Really? Some examples? Besides Islamic states?
    Thanks but coming from an Atheist, I take that with a pinch of salt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick333 View Post
    Any number of South American and African countries where they breed like rabbits.
    There is absolutely no reliable evidence for a causal relationship between degree of religion (or religiosity) and level of affluence in countries.

  9. #159
    Ulysses Everett McGill OrbitalDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    There is absolutely no reliable evidence for a causal relationship between degree of religion (or religiosity) and level of affluence in countries.
    It's more correlation than causation. I wouldn't necessarily say less religion automatically = better country (or States in the USA), but generally countries with higher levels of education, less inequality and poverty, and more prosperity have less religion, or at least, higher irreligious figures. alloytoo uses the term post-god society, where religion just plays a lesser role for more people in the country.
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

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    Super Grandmaster falcon786's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrbitalDawn View Post
    It's more correlation than causation. I wouldn't necessarily say less religion automatically = better country (or States in the USA), but generally countries with higher levels of education, less inequality and poverty, and more prosperity have less religion, or at least, higher irreligious figures. alloytoo uses the term post-god society, where religion just plays a lesser role for more people in the country.
    Please show us some proper scientific studies to that effect,that can only be possible if you ignore other factors like socio economic structures and important events(colonialism for example) that shaped the world as we know it today etc.

    Also realize that in Islam a persons wealth is not the measure of their success, so running for money is not a proof of happiness or prosperity in predominantly Islamic societies.The Prophet himself lived a life of poverty to the end.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    There is absolutely no reliable evidence for a causal relationship between degree of religion (or religiosity) and level of affluence in countries.
    Ineresting:

    http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...Leonhardt.html
    #FREEISRAEL

  12. #162
    Super Grandmaster falcon786's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiyanZ View Post
    I think those South American and African countries are religious because they are poor, not the other way around. People are poor so they become religious to get hand outs from the church or whatever religion is dominant in the country. They also pray for better things such as living conditions etc. i.e. hoping for miracles and divine intervention.

    People in the richer countries already have almost everything so they have little to pray for. They just say, "who needs god when I already have everything?"
    Interesting point you make there....the Christian missionaries have largely done this to promote Christianity in third world countries and Islam was initially more prevalent amongst the poor so maybe you have a point there.

    But this may not hold true for all places just a few,unfortunately there are so many other factors that affect a countries or peoples prosperity it would almost be impossible to deduce any link between the two.

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    Karmic Sangoma ghoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    There is absolutely no reliable evidence for a causal relationship between degree of religion (or religiosity) and level of affluence in countries.
    You should have ended your sentence with, "that you know of". Cause lets be honest, you dont exactly track research journals (neither do I, thats not an insult).



    http://www.pewglobal.org/2007/10/04/...t-immigration/

    The survey finds a strong relationship between a country’s religiosity and its economic status. In poorer nations, religion remains central to the lives of individuals, while secular perspectives are more common in richer nations.1 This relationship generally is consistent across regions and countries, although there are some exceptions, including most notably the United States, which is a much more religious country than its level of prosperity would indicate. Other nations deviate from the pattern as well, including the oil-rich, predominantly Muslim — and very religious — kingdom of Kuwait.

    You can honestly find the 10 most religious countries, and compare every aspect of their lives to the 10 least religious countries. You dont have to be a rocket scientists to see a very very very clear result.
    Last edited by ghoti; 28-12-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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  14. #164

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    Actually ghoti, I do track research journals on this and other matters. Nevertheless, had such a relationship existed, I would expect it to be widely published. If you have the relevant evidence or research results, make it available...

  15. #165
    Karmic Sangoma ghoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Actually ghoti, I do track research journals on this and other matters.
    Sure you do. Which journals do you follow?


    Nevertheless, had such a relationship existed, I would expect it to be widely published. If you have the relevant evidence or research results, make it available...
    Um, I just showed you Pew Research showing the link between religiosity and poverty

    Here is some more reading:


    http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/re...t-nations.aspx
    http://humanism.org.uk/2009/07/29/news-332/
    Last edited by ghoti; 28-12-2012 at 12:18 PM.
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