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Thread: Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

  1. #31
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    Any Muslim who thinks like that is ignorant. Purely because the first entries to heaven will be the poor. Irrespective of race, colour, religion or whatever. Their poverty is a 1 way ticket to eternal paradise. So that theory is "Busted"

    Okay, so what you are saying is you dont have to be a muslim to get into heaven. Fantastic. Then no need to be a muslim in the first place. Just be a good person.
    If you choose not be a muslim and just be a good person than you a Muslim in the non technical sense. So for everything a muslims would do you have your own version of it... Then your a muslim... Its like going to write you bar exams but not going to university to study law and relying on your own techniques to pass the Bar. Its easier to go to university with a set syllabus and course material. But hey if you feel you can do it better on your own nothing stops you....
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    Islam just does not draw a line in the sand and say believe our way or you WILL go to hell, no if's, and's or but's.

    Conditions of going to Paradise

    According to the Qur'an, the basic criteria for salvation in afterlife is the belief
    • in one God (Tawḥīd),
    • Last Judgment,
    • good deeds,
    • and in all the messengers of God,
    • as well as believing that Muhammad is the final prophet of God.


    If you dont believe in Muhammed you dont pass go, I think that qualifies as a line in the sand?
    Right ok...??? So you saying you dont believe in Prophet Muhammad being the last messenger??
    Its not very difficult to see that there has not been any more prophets since Muhammad???

    What you wrote above can be achieved by any person. Be he a Jew, Christian, Aethiest, etc... Its not rocket science...
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    Right ok...??? So you saying you dont believe in Prophet Muhammad being the last messenger??
    Its not very difficult to see that there has not been any more prophets since Muhammad???

    What you wrote above can be achieved by any person. Be he a Jew, Christian, Aethiest, etc... Its not rocket science...
    I dont believe in prophets. End of story. Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
    Schrodingers immigrants : Simultaneously stealing your job and too lazy to work.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    Any Muslim who thinks like that is ignorant. Purely because the first entries to heaven will be the poor. Irrespective of race, colour, religion or whatever. Their poverty is a 1 way ticket to eternal paradise. So that theory is "Busted"



    If you choose not be a muslim and just be a good person than you a Muslim in the non technical sense. So for everything a muslims would do you have your own version of it... Then your a muslim... Its like going to write you bar exams but not going to university to study law and relying on your own techniques to pass the Bar. Its easier to go to university with a set syllabus and course material. But hey if you feel you can do it better on your own nothing stops you....
    Can you please provide your Source(s) to backup your claims.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    Right ok...??? So you saying you dont believe in Prophet Muhammad being the last messenger??
    Its not very difficult to see that there has not been any more prophets since Muhammad???

    What you wrote above can be achieved by any person. Be he a Jew, Christian, Aethiest, etc... Its not rocket science...
    It's true what you say, I'm an atheist and I'm going to paradise, so to all you other heaven-hopefuls, chin up, the chips may be down but you're still in the game!

    Yep, I'm one of them non-muslim Muslims. Proof that you're correct!
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaTcH21 View Post
    Can you please provide your Source(s) to backup your claims.
    I'll have to go dig it up... give me time...
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

  7. #37

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    How did Muhammad qualify as a prophet if I may ask? I am a Christian and not at all an expert on him and why is it said that he is the last prophet?
    Last edited by MessageBeliever; 11-09-2012 at 06:19 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MessageBeliever View Post
    How did Muhammad qualify as a prophet if I may ask? I am a Christian and not at all an expert on him and why is it said that he is the last prophet?
    He said he was. Like all the others.
    Schrodingers immigrants : Simultaneously stealing your job and too lazy to work.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    Formula to Heaven
    What if you find heaven too perfect for your soul?
    Mag jou mes chip en verbrysel / May thy knife chip and shatter

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post

    If you choose not be a muslim and just be a good person than you a Muslim in the non technical sense. So for everything a muslims would do you have your own version of it... Then your a muslim... Its like going to write you bar exams but not going to university to study law and relying on your own techniques to pass the Bar. Its easier to go to university with a set syllabus and course material. But hey if you feel you can do it better on your own nothing stops you....
    Would this also be the same for muslim who has converted to christianity?
    Last edited by Lucas Buck; 11-09-2012 at 06:40 PM.

  11. #41

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    I don't know whether to say WOW or LOL.

    It's this easy:

    1. No individual is guaranteed Paradise (Prophet Muhammad mentioned some specific individuals whom God has promised Paradise, and it is also generally understood that prophets are destined for paradise - but besides that, we do not know). No individual walking the earth can say, "I am guaranteed Paradise." If you hear any Muslim saying that, then know that that Muslim is in disagreement with the consensus of the Muslim scholars, who all say that individuals cannot know this of themselves or anyone else. We can pray that God grants Paradise to us and to others, and then we are required to have hope, but we do not have certainty.

    2. I posted a detailed explanation on the Concept of Salvation in Islam. No-one can force you to read it, but it will answer your question on how Islam views the concept of salvation.

    1 (again). Once again I cannot claim to know whether anyone will go to Heaven, be it you or me. This is the view of mainstream Islam. We do not know. We juxtapose hope with despair; believers are required to have hope, while despair is associated with unbelief.

    3. Furthermore, it is possible for those who are not Muslim to attain salvation. THERE ARE CONDITIONS, which I explained here. But still, no individual can say with certainty whether they are destined for paradise.

    1 (again). Once again, according to Islam, no-one besides God knows whether an individual will go to Heaven or not.

    I would venture to say that correct belief and practice drastically increases your chances, but it is God who will be the final Judge of every soul. Only God knows what lies in the hearts of people, and only God knows what will occur on That Day. This view is the consensus of Muslim scholars.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 11-09-2012 at 08:36 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    BUSTED
    Sorry, In my simplification of salvation for non-Muslims, in an effort not to obfuscate, unfortunately I confounded the issue further, sorry this was not my intention.
    but to answer you I think you highlighted the wrong text from your wiki quote
    read the very next line
    Though one must do good deeds and believe in God, salvation can only be attained through God's judgement.
    While
    ...as well as believing that Muhammad is the final prophet of God.
    is a true statement I am simply stating that God may make a judgement based on his knowledge, and that a person, who does not believe that Muhammad (P.B.U.H) is the final messenger of God, God may still absolve him/her

    i.e.
    what of the people who do not know of Muhammad (P.B.U.H) or the people who came before, is there salvation for them?
    Answer: Yes there MAYBE salvation for them. you mention them in the last part of your wiki quote
    Conversely, a person who discovers monotheism not having been reached by a messenger is called Hanif.
    Further is there Salvation for non-Muslim that have heard of the Prophet (P.B.U.H)
    Answer yes there maybe
    http://quran.com/34/26
    Say, "Our Lord will bring us together; then He will judge between us in truth. And He is the Knowing Judge."
    explanation of this verse from the Tafsir Ibn Kathir

    Say: "Our Lord will assemble us all together...''
    means, `on the Day of Resurrection, He will bring all of creation together in one arena, then He will judge between us with truth, i.e., with justice.'
    ... ثُمَّ يَفْتَحُ بَيْنَنَا بِالْحَقِّ ...
    then He will judge between us with truth.
    Each person will be rewarded or punished according to his deeds; if they are good, then his end will be good, and if they are bad, then his end will be bad. On that Day they will know who has attained victory, glory and eternal happiness, as Allah says:
    وَيَوْمَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ يَوْمَئِذٍ يَتَفَرَّقُونَ
    فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّـلِحَـتِ فَهُمْ فِى رَوْضَةٍ يُحْبَرُونَ
    وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَكَذَّبُواْ بِـَايَـتِنَا وَلِقَآءِ الاَّخِرَةِ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ فِى الْعَذَابِ مُحْضَرُونَ
    And on the Day when the Hour will be established -- that Day shall (all men) be separated. Then as for those who believed and did righteous good deeds, such shall be honored and made to enjoy luxurious life (forever) in a Garden of Delight. And as for those who disbelieved and denied Our Ayat, and the meeting of the Hereafter, such shall be brought forth to the torment. (30:14-16)
    Allah says:
    ... وَهُوَ الْفَتَّاحُ الْعَلِيمُ ﴿٢٦﴾
    And He is the Just Judge, the All-Knower of the true state of affairs.
    ....
    And Allah knows best.
    waits for people to complain about obfuscation
    Last edited by Mineer; 11-09-2012 at 07:00 PM.
    “We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”― Nelson Mandela

  13. #43

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    moosag;8927509]Right ok...??? So you saying you dont believe in Prophet Muhammad being the last messenger??
    Its not very difficult to see that there has not been any more prophets since Muhammad???
    I don’t believe Muhammad was a prophet or the last messenger, I believe that he was a charlatan who founded his own religion and included enough of the Jewish and Christian concepts in order to try and entice them to follow him.

    Just been honest, doesn’t mean I won’t be civil though

    What you wrote above can be achieved by any person. Be he a Jew, Christian, Atheist, etc... Its not rocket science
    How can a Atheist achieve the below, as if he believes that then he is not an atheist

    • in one God (Tawḥīd),
    • Last Judgment,
    • good deeds,
    • and in all the messengers of God,
    • as well as believing that Muhammad is the final prophet of God.

    Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities

  14. #44

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    How did Muhammad qualify as a prophet if I may ask? I am a Christian and not at all an expert on him and why is it said that he is the last prophet?

  15. #45

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    this sounds like circular logic:

    1. god sends a prophet to tell people god's message.
    2. this message would seem to indicate a preferable course of action resulting in higher chances of eternal happiness (i'm all for probablilistic reasoning )
    3. but because salvation is democratised, exceptions need to be allowed. so the disclaimer is that you aren't neccesarily excluded from eternal life if you don't meet all the prophet's requirements. so we allow some wiggle-room which is "god will ultimately decide".
    4. which is fine, but what then was the point of god's instruction through the prophet? either it was to assist in salvation or it isn't. if the idea wasn't to get a better salvation rate, then why was it a preferable solution to not sending the prophet, or another course of action?
    Last edited by murraybiscuit; 12-09-2012 at 09:29 AM.
    The causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them. Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Idiot

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