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Thread: Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    Do good deeds!! Give the beggar's at the street corners... Greet strangers... Smile even when you pissed off! Buy your mom flowers. Buy your wife flowers also. Take your kid to the movies. Help a stranger on the side of the road... ETC...

    Someone once told me... Bank it for the after life... i.e. bank your goods for the after life...
    the problem here is that your good deeds have a motivation which is inconsistent.
    if there wasn't a god, would you still do the good deeds?
    "no" - so you only do good when compelled to? is involuntary reciprocity really good?
    "yes" - well if you would have done the deed anyways, why the need to invoke an external motivation?

    if people without god can do "good deeds", and if people with god can do bad deeds, why the need for a god?
    without god necessary in our terrestrial life, we construct a scenario where he is necessary in the hereafter: god as the sole determinant and arbiter of fate which necessarily binds us to him.
    after all, what need is there for a god without a life after death?
    and with no evidence for this, why would we invent such a thing?
    Last edited by murraybiscuit; 12-09-2012 at 09:46 AM.
    The causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them. Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Idiot

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    I donít believe Muhammad was a prophet or the last messenger, I believe that he was a charlatan who founded his own religion and included enough of the Jewish and Christian concepts in order to try and entice them to follow him.
    I quote just a few points ( FACTS ) by Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao:

    Out of nothing a new world was fashioned by the mighty spirit of Prophet Muhammad. A new life, a new culture, a new civilization, a new kingdom which extended from Morocco to Indies and influenced the thought and life of most continents.Even a hostile critic like Sir William Muir speaking about the holy Quran says that "there is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries with so pure text " .

    Prophet Muhammad is also a historic personality, every event of whose life has been most carefully recorded and even the minutest details preserved intact for the posterity. His life and works are not wrapped in mystery.

    But in pure self-defence, after repeated efforts of conciliation had utterly failed, circumstances dragged him into the battlefield. But the prophet of Islam changed the whole strategy of the battlefield. The total number of casualties in all the wars that took place during his lifetime when the whole Arabian Peninsula came under his banner, does not exceed a few hundreds in all. But even on the battlefield he taught the Arab barbarians to pray, to pray not individually, but in congregation to God the Almighty. During the dust and storm of warfare whenever the time for prayer came, and it comes five times a every day, the congregation prayer had not to be postponed even on the battlefield. A party had to be engaged in bowing their heads before God while other was engaged with the enemy. After finishing the prayers, the two parties had to exchange their positions

    the Battlefield itself was humanized and strict instructions were issued not to cheat, not to break trust, not to mutilate, not to kill a child or woman or an old man, not to hew down date palm nor burn it, not to cut a fruit tree, not to molest any person engaged in worship. His own treatment with his bitterest enemies is the noblest example for his followers. At the conquest of Mecca, he stood at the zenith of his power. The city which had refused to listen to his mission, which had tortured him and his followers, which had driven him and his people into exile and which had unrelentingly persecuted and boycotted him even when he had taken refuge in a place more than 200 miles away, that city now lay at his feet. By the laws of war he could have justly avenged all the cruelties inflicted on him and his people. But what treatment did he accord to them? Muhammad's heart flowed with affection and he declared "This day, there is no REPROOF against you and you are all free." This day he proclaimed. "I trample under my feet all distinctions between man and man, all hatred between man and man."

    All great religions have preached the same doctrine but the prophet of Islam had put this theory into actual practice and its value will be fully recognized, perhaps centuries hence, when international consciousness being awakened, racial prejudices may disappear and greater brotherhood of humanity come into existence.

    There is Muhammad, the prophet, There is Muhammad the General; Muhammad the King; Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the businessman; Muhammad the preacher; Muhammad the philosopher; Muhammad the statesman Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the reformer; Muhammad the refuge of orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the emancipator of women; Muhammad the Law-giver; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint

    From an orphan boy to a persecuted refugee and then to an overlord, spiritual as well as temporal, of a whole nation and Arbiter of its destinies, with all its trials and temptations, with all its vicissitudes and changes, its lights and shades, its up and downs, its terror and splendor, he has stood the fire of the world and came out unscathed to serve as a model in every face of life. his Achievements are not limited to one aspect of life, but cover the whole field of human conditions

    Thomas Carlyle, struck by this philosophy of life writes "and then also Islam-that we must submit to God; that our whole strength lies in resigned submission to Him, whatsoever he does to us, the thing he sends to us, even if death and worse than death, shall be good, shall be best; we resign ourselves to God." The same author continues "If this be Islam, says Goethe, do we not all live in Islam? Carlyle himself answers this question of Goethe and says "Yes, all of us that have any moral life, we all live so. This is yet the highest wisdom that heaven has revealed to our earth."

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    I don’t believe Muhammad was a prophet or the last messenger, I believe that he was a charlatan who founded his own religion and included enough of the Jewish and Christian concepts in order to try and entice them to follow him.
    that's what the jews say about jesus. come on guy, this works both ways. take a step back.
    special pleading resolves both scenarios. what makes your special pleading more special?
    sorry, i'm assuming you're christian here.
    Last edited by murraybiscuit; 12-09-2012 at 09:48 AM.
    The causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them. Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Idiot

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaTcH21 View Post
    Prophet Muhammad is also a historic personality, every event of whose life has been most carefully recorded and even the minutest details preserved intact for the posterity. His life and works are not wrapped in mystery.
    from a layperson't point of view, it would be interesting to know how many extant documents of the prophet are from independent and or hostile sources. not saying the above quote is wrong, it just sounds a bit imbalanced and too romantic. the guy never did anything bad or wrong? really? hmm.
    The causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them. Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Idiot

  5. #50

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    Perhaps mineer and wayfarer can shed some light on these gems from the Quran. To clarify to non-muslims:

    1) Sura is Arabic for chapters.

    2) Verses can be repetitive. That is, a verse may repeat in the Qur’an and/or in the Suras and Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad collected by Burkhari or Muslim or others) numerous times, but be slightly different in wording.

    3) Qur’an verses are often ‘real time.’ That is, Muhammad would come up with a verse to express his anger in certain situations. For example, he gets pissed at some Jews, or thinks his warriors are slacking in the jihad, that’s a good time for a holy revelation and let them have it.

    4) Chapters (Suras) and sometimes even verses within a chapter are out of chronological order in the Qur’an. For example, Chapters 9 and 5 are considered the last revelations. Since Muhammad is at the pinnacle of his conquest when he revealed chapters 9 and 5, verses from Chapter 9 and 5, which always abrogated earlier verses that conflict, show the true hatred and venom of Muhammad when he believed he had no one to fear. [The Encyclopedia of Islam, op cit, details three Western Islamic scholars chronology of the Qur’an. (Noldeke was one of the greatest Qur’anic scholars from the West). This is the chronological order of the last Medinan Suras listed in their work: Weil sequence: 2, 98, 62, 65, 22, 4, 8, 47, 57, 3, 59, 24, 63, 33, 48, 110, 61, 60, 58, 49, 66, 9, 5. Noldeke and Blachere sequence: 2, 98, 64, 62, 8, 47, 3, 61, 57, 4, 65, 59, 33, 63, 24, 58, 22, 48, 66, 60, 110, 49, 9, 5. [NOTE: Traditional Western dating breaks the chronological order of the Qur’an up into 3 or 4 groups. The last group (sometimes called “late Medinan”) is presented above. There are earlier suras in both lists above, however, for space’s sake, and editing time, only the last sura grouping is presented. Note that sura 9 is the second to last in all these three scholar’s groupings.] Here’s the bottom line, Suras 9 and 5, the most violent and vile of Suras are the last spoken by Muhammad, and they abrogate all previous verses in conflict with them. Do not allow Muslim apologists to deceive you by citing verses abrograted by verses in Suras 9 and 5.

    5) Muslims all the time lie to Infidels about what the Qur’an says. In fact, the Qur’an honors and promote deceit to advance Islam against the Infidels. Taqiyyamasters will tell you the Qur’an is being mistranslated to English. This is BS. The verses in all the translations are remarkably similar. A manifest of intimidation, war and murder. It’s easy to see, but hard for many to believe because its vileness and deceit are repulsive. Now you will understand just a bit more about how jihad is fundamental to Islam.

    6) Muslims all the time claim you are reading an English Qur’an that has misinterpreted the original Arabic. This is complete BS. The Qur’an is not that complicated at all. The chapters are out of order, which is stupid and confuses the reader who does not know this, but now you know the correct sequence. You can look at many English translations, and they are extremely close. Really, how does ‘kill’ in Arabic get mistranslated into ‘love’ rather than ‘kill.’ It can’t be.
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    Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position - Bill Maher

  6. #51

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    That said:

    Everything Those Infidels Have Everywhere In the World Already Belongs to the Muslims, Take It

    Qur’an 33.27 And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.

    Qur’an 21:44 Do they see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome. NOTE: Political Correctness and Multiculturalism has proven to be the most powerful weapon for the advancement of Dar al-Islam since 1945.

    About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)

    Qur’an 9:123 “murder them and treat them harshly”
    Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
    NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam.

    Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”

    Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”

    Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”

    Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”

    Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”

    Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.

    Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”

    Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM

    Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.

    Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

    Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”

    Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”

    Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

    Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”

    Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

    Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”

    Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”

    Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”

    Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

    Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”

    Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”

    Bukhari:V4B56N814 “There was a Christian who embraced Islam and he used to write the revelations for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again he used to say: ‘Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.’”

    Qur’an 9.28 O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque (Mecca) after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
    NOTE: In 631 A.D. (less than one year before his death, Muhammad had a revelation. No infidels allowed into Mecca (9:28). This also included the idolators, i.e., the orginal rock worshippers of the Kabaa who had not submitted to Islam. They were history, what few were left by this time.

    Qur’an 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    Qur’an 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

    Qur’an 47:4 “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.”

    Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985) Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
    The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

    Hadith Sahih Bukhari (4:52:176) Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
    Allah’s Apostle said, “You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, ‘O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ “

    Hadith Sahih Bukhari (4:52:177) Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”

    Hadith Sahih Bukhari (4:56:791) Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
    I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!’ “

    Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6981) Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
    You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.

    Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6982) Ubaidullah has reported this hadith with this chain of transmitters (and the Words are):
    “There is a Jew behind me.”

    Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6983) Abdullah b. ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
    You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

    Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6984) Abdullah b. ‘Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:
    The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

    Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985) Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
    The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

    Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”
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    Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position - Bill Maher

  7. #52

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    Qur’an 47:4 So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

    Qur’an 21:44 Do they not see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome.

    Qur’an 47.35 And be not slack so as to cry for peace and you have the upper hand, and Allah is with you, and He will not bring your deeds to naught.

    Bukhari:V4B53N412 “Allah’s Apostle said on the day of the conquest of Mecca, ‘There is no migration now, only Jihad, holy battle. And when you are called for Jihad, you should come out at once.’”

    Jihad Against Those Who Corrupt the Land

    Context of the verse on the killing of one person being equal to the killing of the whole world. Quran 5:32. This is one of the favorite verses TaqiyyaMasters use to deceive the Infidels:

    Sura 5:32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief (corruption) in the land it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then there came to them Our apostles with clear Signs yet even after that many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

    NOTE: This is the passage that Muslim apologists revise, or more correctly selectivly omit clauses, and feed it to the MSM as the following:
    If anyone slew a person … it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.

    Doesn’t that sound a lot better? This is a perfect example of taqiyya (deception of Infidels). Where ‘some information is held back.’ It’s not a lie lie, it’s a misrepresentation that naÔve Infidels accept and run with and the Muslims don’t point out the deceit. This is typical taqiyya and kitman.

    However, in Qur'an 5:33 which is clearly tied to 5:32 to create a single message, Muhammad makes clear that those 'mischief makers', i.e. the Infidels (Jews, Chrisians, pagans, all non-Muslims) are to be killed.

    Qur’an 5:33: “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and perpetrate mischief [reject Islam or oppose its goals] in the land, is to murder them, to hang them, to mutilate them, or banish them. Such is their disgrace. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

    Another 5:33 translation (but is it really any different than the one above?):

    Sura 5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for mischief (corruption) through the land is: execution or crucifixion of the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.


    In the later revelations, and as Mohammad became more powerful and more cruel, he really let the Infidels (that’s you and me) have it, especially in the last Sura, the infamous Sura 9.

    Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” This verse is cited more than any other as abrogating less aggressive Qur’anic passages. It is said to have abrogated no fewer than 124 verses of the Qur’an. The reference to the sacred months is said to mean that after this specific period of sacred month, you need not respect any sacred months any more, but can fight whenever it is convenient.

    While the sword verse in 9:5 refers to idolaters, another verse, Sura 9:29 was given to permit attacking Jews and Christians (people of the book):

    Sura 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

    Qur’an 9:77 “He punished them by putting hypocrisy in their hearts until the Day whereon they shall meet Him, because they lied to Allah and failed to perform as promised. Allah knows their secrets. Those who slander and taunt the believers who pay the zakat (for Allah’s Cause) voluntarily and throw ridicule on them, scoffing, Allah will throw back their taunts, and they shall have a painful doom. Whether you ask for their forgiveness or not, (their sin is unforgivable). If you ask seventy times for their forgiveness Allah will not forgive them.”
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    Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position - Bill Maher

  8. #53

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    Context for 61:10 is from The American Thinker - Top 10 Reasons Islam Is Not a Religion of Peace.

    Throughout the Quran, Muhammad promises the men in his fledgling Muslim community that if they die fighting for Allah and for him, Allah will reward them with a “virgin-rich” Garden (Suras 44:51-56; 52:17-29; 55:46-78).

    In the following Quranic passage, representing others (Suras 4:74, 9:111; 3:140-143), the Arabic word “jihad” (root is j-h-d) is the means or currency to trade in this life for the life to come in an economic bargain.

    61:10 You who believe, shall I show you a bargain that will save you from painful punishment? 11 Have faith in God and His Messenger and struggle [j-h-d] for His cause with your possessions and your persons—that is better for you, if only you knew—12 and He will forgive your sins, admit you into Gardens graced with flowing streams, into pleasant dwellings in the Gardens of Eternity. That is the supreme triumph. (Haleem)

    These verses are found in the historical context of the Battle of Uhud (625), in which Muhammad lost 70 of his fighters. Thus, he must make the loss of life appear worth the sacrifice, so he frames their deaths in an economic bargain (note the word in bold print). If his jihadists trade in or sell their lives down here, they will be granted Islamic heaven—it is a done deal.


    And Terrorize and Terrorize Those Infidels

    Sura 3:151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers for that they joined companions with Allah for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the fire; and evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

    Sura 8:60 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power including steeds of war to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides whom ye may not know but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you and ye shall not be treated unjustly.


    Three Roots of Faith

    Hadith Sunan Abu Dawud (14:2526) Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: (1) to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his actions; and (2), jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist). The tyranny of any tyrant and the justice of any just (ruler) will not invalidate it. (3) One must have faith in Divine decree.

    Complements http://pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.co...s-of-hate.html
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    Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position - Bill Maher

  9. #54

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    CaTcH21;

    They are facts according to him, but there are plenty of scholars who dispute this

    Why are you highlighting war and using it to ilustrate how good muhammed was?

    Jesus said
    Matthew 5
    38 You have heard that it has been said: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike you on your right cheek, turn to him also the other

    43 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbour, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by murraybiscuit View Post
    that's what the jews say about jesus. come on guy, this works both ways. take a step back.
    special pleading resolves both scenarios. what makes your special pleading more special?
    sorry, i'm assuming you're christian here.
    What pleading I was stating my point of view, not looking for a convert or anything

  11. #56
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    @Everyone tell me what you think of the following:

    www.documentx.net

    Document X : Direct Evidence of God's Existence by Joseph Noor (PHD from CPT)

    Basic Intro:

    Against the background of many conflicting views concerning the Big Questions of existence, Joseph Noor re-examines an ancient text, which he has dubbed “Document X’. This study uncovers new evidence and stunning information about the origin and development of the Universe and life.

    Through an incredible journey from the birth of the cosmos to its very end, Document X seeks to prove God’s existence by answering questions such as ‘how was the Universe created?’, ‘how did life originate?’, ‘is evolution true?’ and ‘how will the Universe end?’.

    In clear cut scientific language, the document expresses its superior knowledge of the universe, revealing its deep secrets and thereby demonstrating that the answers to these issues are not the outcome of human imagination, but rather based on divine knowledge and proof of the existence of God.

    Yes, this is an extraordinary claim, but one cannot argue against the rather extraordinary evidence.
    So basically what this guy has done is use "Document X" aka "The Quraan" as a reference point to scientifically prove the existence of God. This book is not aimed at converting people to Islam. Its target market is that of the modern scientific community. It sticks purely to modern day scientific methods of deduction and proofing. It talks about and confirms Big Bang, Evolution and a whole myriad of topics covering astro physics and what we have learnt about the universe in the last 50 years or so.

    The book and author itself have ruffled enough feathers in the muslim community already... Which is great because it gets people thinking and questioning things themselves.

    I don’t believe Muhammad was a prophet or the last messenger, I believe that he was a charlatan who founded his own religion and included enough of the Jewish and Christian concepts in order to try and entice them to follow him.
    Basically if you read this book you will end up logically deducing that Muhammed had to have been a prophet. Otherwise how did a Bedouin in the 7th century have such knowledge of the cosmos and matters that we have only discovered in the last 50 years or so.

    Charlatan - a person who pretends or claims to have more knowledge or skill than he or she possesses; quack.
    Even if objectively and scientifically you are trying to prove that Muhammad is a Charlatan there is like mountains of evidence against such a claim. Even if you just stick to scientific facts its impossible to deduce Muhammad was a Charlatan.

    If Muhammad was a Charlatan than so was Jesus, Mosez, Abraham, David, Lut, Solomon, Adam, Noah, etc... Which is absurd! I mean Noah predicted a great flood. Mosez split a whole ocean apart. Jesuz healed the blind and sickly. All Muhammed did was receive revelation in the form of the Quraan as an ultimate book of guidance through the Angel Gabriel and he was illiterate.

    You must remember Muhammad never forced anyone to follow him. People followed him because he lead by example. His sheer brilliance of character is why there are 1.5 billion muslims and counting today.

    @RSG/T - You believe in God right? If you do than you are familiar with prayer. Then genuinely and sincerely pray to him and ask him for guidance. Be like "Look God there's these damn Moslems trying to convert me :P and there is so much information out there. I can't make heads or tails who to believe and what to believe. Please show me the way and guide me..."

    You just cant go wrong... I'll give you some insight. In Islam we pray 5 times a day. Prayers consists of 2 or 3 or 4 rakats (up down motion you see us doing). There is a specific 2 rakat prayer known as "Istikhara".

    The istikhara prayer may be made for a specific matter or be made for a general seeking of all that is best
    While you pray you think about what you want guidance or questions to answers to. You then sleep and either you have a dream or you heart ends up leaning towards one side or the other. Lets not even get started on the debates this topic will cause lol

    Anyways nowadays most muslim people use it for "Should I marry this girl". Generally its considered a good thing to read Isthikara to ask God as to whether you should marry this girl or not. Some people do it some dont. And no I dont have the stats for it works for and who does not.

    In my own experience I use it for everything. Jobs, cars, investments, wife of course :P and whatever big decision comes my way. Funny thing happened towards the end of last year. I read the prayer asking for guidance on whether to start up my own company again or go get a job. Anyways I had a dream about me working in one of my old companies sitting laughing with old colleagues. This was december 2011. Anyways I was gatvol of working for ppl. So I did my own thing. Trues bob I am back at that same company in my dream as of 2 months ago.

    If your genuine aim is to seek the truth than if you ask for it it will come.

    I mean if some of the guys here online are genuine about having serious debates about religion, existence of God or whatever I dont even mind meeting up somewhere where we can hash it all out. Coffee or lunch or something.

    Peace out
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    What pleading I was stating my point of view, not looking for a convert or anything
    Yeah but the point is that you're arguing against the claims of Muhammad whilst quoting Jesus. There is not a shred of evidence or logic to make the claim that Muhammad is a charlatan whilst saying that Jesus isn't.
    "Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so." -Galileo

  13. #58
    Grandmaster
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    @UnSkinnybob

    Muslims all the time claim you are reading an English Qur’an that has misinterpreted the original Arabic. This is complete BS
    That is like the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard or seen. The biggest problem we face today as a Muslim community is that the Transliteration to English of the Arabic from Quraan is far from complete. Document X is one of those books that proves what I am talking about. People have spend countless years studying and analysing Quraan and you are saying its not that difficult. 1) You dont speak arabic. 2) You loosely copy and paste exerts from the Quraan that are so out of context its not even funny.

    Do me a favour. Just go have a look at the commentary regarding the individual Ayat (exerts) of the Quraan here.
    http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm

    These are called Tafsir. Commentary and explanation of the Quraan. Dont read it. Just have a look at the sheer volume regarding the individual Ayat let alone the entire Surah. Then if you want go read it in its full context than come here and start copying and pasting.
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    @UnSkinnybob



    That is like the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard or seen. The biggest problem we face today as a Muslim community is that the Transliteration to English of the Arabic from Quraan is far from complete. Document X is one of those books that proves what I am talking about. People have spend countless years studying and analysing Quraan and you are saying its not that difficult. 1) You dont speak arabic. 2) You loosely copy and paste exerts from the Quraan that are so out of context its not even funny.

    Do me a favour. Just go have a look at the commentary regarding the individual Ayat (exerts) of the Quraan here.
    http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm

    These are called Tafsir. Commentary and explanation of the Quraan. Dont read it. Just have a look at the sheer volume regarding the individual Ayat let alone the entire Surah. Then if you want go read it in its full context than come here and start copying and pasting.
    Yep, have read some pretty long and detailed books before, some where good stories, others didn't hold my attention very long, ..religious manuscripts definitely fall under the latter.
    [email protected] | 16GB DDR4-2666 | GTX 1060 | 250GB 850 EVO | RM550x | LA32D550

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unhappy438 View Post
    Yeah but the point is that you're arguing against the claims of Muhammad whilst quoting Jesus. There is not a shred of evidence or logic to make the claim that Muhammad is a charlatan whilst saying that Jesus isn't.
    I was illustrating differences in the two specifically regarding war and violence

    There is not a shred of evidence or logic to make the claim that Muhammad isnít a charlatan
    It all boils down to your personal belief doesnít it?

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