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Thread: Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    It all boils down to your personal belief doesn’t it?
    Well not really , i would say it basically boils down to what your parents taught you to believe in. For a smaller minority who are religious and don't have religious parents then its race , place of living and/or social groups.
    "Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so." -Galileo

  2. #62

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    moosag
    @RSG/T - You believe in God right? If you do than you are familiar with prayer. Then genuinely and sincerely pray to him and ask him for guidance. Be like "Look God there's these damn Moslems trying to convert me :P and there is so much information out there. I can't make heads or tails who to believe and what to believe. Please show me the way and guide me..."

    I generally pray to give thanks, not to ask for anything and as for guidance, I have yet to be guided in the wrong direction and have never had the slightest hint that I should look at converting

    Thank you for your concern though.

    Talking about your prayers, is it true that some Muslims rub the spot on their forehead that touches the carpet with sandpaper in order to get the whole pious look

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unhappy438 View Post
    Well not really , i would say it basically boils down to what your parents taught you to believe in. For a smaller minority who are religious and don't have religious parents then its race , place of living and/or social groups.
    Your parents provide a base and as you get older you can either build on it or reject it.

    There is no sure way to determine which way a person will go, outside factors will have a definite influence, but it still boils down to what a person believes after digesting all this information

  4. #64

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    Document X : Direct Evidence of God's Existence by Joseph Noor (PHD from CPT)
    In Document X Noor argues that hidden in the ancient messages of the Qur’an is scientific proof and hard facts of the existence of God a God that is responsible for evolution and the harmony and order of the universe.

    It doesn’t seem to be all that widespread as most of the links are to the site itself or local articles, nothing from the international community.

    He is just another person exposing his theories, that’s all

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    Your parents provide a base and as you get older you can either build on it or reject it.

    There is no sure way to determine which way a person will go, outside factors will have a definite influence, but it still boils down to what a person believes after digesting all this information
    Ever heard of indoctrination, i presume your parents didn't teach you about each and every religion in the same way they taught you Christianity. People get told their religion is the one and only truth , they get threatened with hell and they know they will be ostracized by family if they question their beliefs. This is by no means a good platform to create that encourages free thinking and rationalising ones beliefs. It makes it much rarer for people to properly "digest all the information" and choose to reject it.

    Anyway we are getting way off topic here.
    "Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so." -Galileo

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    @UnSkinnybob
    That is like the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard or seen.
    Ok - well thanks for at least answering. I'm going to stick comments in between your answers. Note that I quoted my source - maybe you'll hear or see an even bigger load of nonsense. That said, It wouldn't hurt to address individual points, or paragraphs and give your rebuttal.

    The biggest problem we face today as a Muslim community is that the Transliteration to English of the Arabic from Quraan is far from complete.
    OK, noted. But why? What's the hold up? There is NO complete translation? I find that odd. Hidden agenda?

    Document X is one of those books that proves what I am talking about. People have spend countless years studying and analysing Quraan and you are saying its not that difficult. 1) You dont speak arabic. 2) You loosely copy and paste exerts from the Quraan that are so out of context its not even funny.
    In wayfarer's thread he makes use of a great many single verses from the Quran and there are no objections. I do the same and the old "out of context" card gets played. I'm not biting. Please substantiate your claim and provide the correct context for example:
    Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”

    Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”

    Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”

    Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

    Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

    Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”

    Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

    Do me a favour. Just go have a look at the commentary regarding the individual Ayat (exerts) of the Quraan here.
    http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm

    These are called Tafsir. Commentary and explanation of the Quraan. Dont read it. Just have a look at the sheer volume regarding the individual Ayat let alone the entire Surah. Then if you want go read it in its full context than come here and start copying and pasting.
    Again, just following wayfarer's example. If you'd like to correct any/all of the claims and add "context", please do so.

    I've had a look at some of the meanings links and excuse me for saying, I'm not impressed by the "volume". The Quran has +/-77,934 words. It's hardly an encyclopedia. My little "Quran Explorer" app on my iphone gives me direct English translation. Would you argue that the translation to English has magically oversimplified the verses? Same argument Christian denominations love to punt. "One must have a true understanding" and all that to comprehend the message. Uhuh. So the discussion around my point ends in: "You can't possibly understand the true meaning, etc."? Tastes like mushroom feed.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    @UnSkinnybob



    That is like the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard or seen. The biggest problem we face today as a Muslim community is that the Transliteration to English of the Arabic from Quraan is far from complete. Document X is one of those books that proves what I am talking about. People have spend countless years studying and analysing Quraan and you are saying its not that difficult. 1) You dont speak arabic. 2) You loosely copy and paste exerts from the Quraan that are so out of context its not even funny.

    Do me a favour. Just go have a look at the commentary regarding the individual Ayat (exerts) of the Quraan here.
    http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm

    These are called Tafsir. Commentary and explanation of the Quraan. Dont read it. Just have a look at the sheer volume regarding the individual Ayat let alone the entire Surah. Then if you want go read it in its full context than come here and start copying and pasting.
    The author of Document X claims that humans do not possess a soul.Is this belief not in direct conflict with the Islamic view of what man is?

    Document X, an ancient historical paper, which Joseph Noor argues is the signature of God, preaches evolution and as expected, rejects the soul hypothesis on the basis of evidence and gives an alternative scientific explanation for the human dimension.
    http://www.documentx.net/why-is-document-x-different/

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post

    Again, just following wayfarer's example. If you'd like to correct any/all of the claims and add "context", please do so.
    To be fair, you're not really following wayfarer's example, as he regularly refers to the opinions of respected scholars of the Quran and Islam, etc, i.e. those who properly understand the context, and applicability (wayfarer please correct me if I'm wrong here) of the verses.

    You, on the other hand, have only quoted portions of verses. I'll thumb-suck and guess that maybe some of those verse-portions refer to one or more specific battles Mohamad and the rest of the muslims engaged in? Yes, that's just a thumb-suck, and may be incorrect, but the point is: did you consider it? Have you thought of the possible situations in which these verse-portions are applicable? Or did you simply blanket assume they apply to every single situation, all the time?

    I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I do wonder how much honest thought you put into the verse-portions you quote.

    I've had a look at some of the meanings links and excuse me for saying, I'm not impressed by the "volume". The Quran has +/-77,934 words. It's hardly an encyclopedia. My little "Quran Explorer" app on my iphone gives me direct English translation. Would you argue that the translation to English has magically oversimplified the verses? Same argument Christian denominations love to punt. "One must have a true understanding" and all that to comprehend the message. Uhuh. So the discussion around my point ends in: "You can't possibly understand the true meaning, etc."? Tastes like mushroom feed.

    Now here I certainly agree with the part in bold. That sort of response just doesn't cut it. Perhaps wayfarer will enlighten us.

    ps:
    Btw, I love mushrooms!

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodan View Post
    those who properly understand the context, and applicability
    Yeah, like I said: I don't buy "out of context" until someone explains the context from scripture. Religions all pretend to be incredibly complex. They aren't.

    You, on the other hand, have only quoted portions of verses. I'll thumb-suck and guess that maybe some of those verse-portions refer to one or more specific battles Mohamad and the rest of the muslims engaged in? Yes, that's just a thumb-suck, and may be incorrect, but the point is: did you consider it? Have you thought of the possible situations in which these verse-portions are applicable? Or did you simply blanket assume they apply to every single situation, all the time?
    I'll definitely entertain the notion but I would want ammo to back it up. That said, there is a large militant contingent who could use the same versus as justification for atrocities.

    I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I do wonder how much honest thought you put into the verse-portions you quote.
    Roughly zero thought beyond reading the individual verses. But again, I'll stick to their literal interpretation until someone convinces me of claimed context.



    Now here I certainly agree with the part in bold. That sort of response just doesn't cut it. Perhaps wayfarer will enlighten us.
    Yeah - I'm also curious to get an educated response.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    Yeah, like I said: I don't buy "out of context" until someone explains the context from scripture. Religions all pretend to be incredibly complex. They aren't.

    I'll definitely entertain the notion but I would want ammo to back it up. That said, there is a large militant contingent who could use the same versus as justification for atrocities.

    Roughly zero thought beyond reading the individual verses. But again, I'll stick to their literal interpretation until someone convinces me of claimed context.



    Yeah - I'm also curious to get an educated response.
    What you don't understand is that when they say KILL, they mean have a polite discussion and educate the Kafirs on their wrongdoings. Some guy messed up the translation into English, but it was too expensive to re-print. Pity about the ambiguous nature of the majority of religious texts, so much confusion.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    Yeah, like I said: I don't buy "out of context" until someone explains the context from scripture. Religions all pretend to be incredibly complex. They aren't.
    You appear to think you know a lot about ALL religions, including in-depth knowledge of ALL religions. If this is the case, please tell us how it is you know so much about all religions (interestingly, your knowledge seems rather lacking on the Quran and Islam). If this is not the case, please tell us how it is you can make such a bold claim about all religions.

    I'll definitely entertain the notion but I would want ammo to back it up. That said, there is a large militant contingent who could use the same versus as justification for atrocities.
    I agree with you on this 100%. In fact, I have learnt in wayfarer's intro thread that the muslim extremists are, in fact, using the literal interpretation of selected verses (and in some case, mere portions of verses), without context, in order to justify their atrocities.

    Roughly zero thought beyond reading the individual verses. But again, I'll stick to their literal interpretation until someone convinces me of claimed context.
    Something in common with the muslim extremists, you have.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodan View Post
    You appear to think you know a lot about ALL religions, including in-depth knowledge of ALL religions. If this is the case, please tell us how it is you know so much about all religions (interestingly, your knowledge seems rather lacking on the Quran and Islam). If this is not the case, please tell us how it is you can make such a bold claim about all religions.



    I agree with you on this 100%. In fact, I have learnt in wayfarer's intro thread that the muslim extremists are, in fact, using the literal interpretation of selected verses (and in some case, mere portions of verses), without context, in order to justify their atrocities.



    Something in common with the muslim extremists, you have.
    It sure is a pity a lot of Muslims do indeed take the verses literally. I wonder why they're not privy to the same information as you are.
    I wonder why there are such hateful verses like that in your holy book in the first place? Surely it would have been foreseeable to anyone who wrote it, that such vile utterings could lead to massive misunderstandings and violence against the innocent.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dudewotevr View Post
    It sure is a pity a lot of Muslims do indeed take the verses literally. I wonder why they're not privy to the same information as you are.
    I wonder why there are such hateful verses like that in your holy book in the first place? Surely it would have been foreseeable to anyone who wrote it, that such vile utterings could lead to massive misunderstandings and violence against the innocent.
    I believe you will greatly benefit by reading wayfarer's intro thread. You have some obvious misunderstandings that a read-through of that thread will clear up. Good luck in there!

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodan View Post
    I believe you will greatly benefit by reading wayfarer's intro thread. You have some obvious misunderstandings that a read-through of that thread will clear up. Good luck in there!
    I'm sure I do
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  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by unskinnybob View Post
    In wayfarer's thread he makes use of a great many single verses from the Quran and there are no objections. I do the same and the old "out of context" card gets played...
    As Sodan points out:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sodan View Post
    To be fair, you're not really following wayfarer's example, as he regularly refers to the opinions of respected scholars of the Quran and Islam, etc, i.e. those who properly understand the context, and applicability (wayfarer please correct me if I'm wrong here) of the verses.
    The views I present in the thread are those of mainstream Islamic scholars, and not exclusively my own, and the contexts that the verses appear in are agreed upon by the scholars. Thus the context in which I quote the verses are appropriate according to 100s of veteran Quranic exegesis scholars in a scholarship legacy of refinement lasting more that a 1000 years. This legacy includes interdisciplinary efforts of first rank grammarians, historians, lexicographers, philosophers and other specialists who have not only been interested in understanding the finer nuances of the Sacred Text, but have also been keen on implementing it in their daily lives. Some of these scholars spent decades of their lives grappling with the Text, nurturing greater insights. I would much sooner choose their interpretations and contextual attributions than yours or some hate site's that uses translations by orientalists whose only motive is to denigrate.

    There are several systems and classes according to which Quranic verses go. Some of the divisions applicable here include the identifications of the 'am, has and mustamirrah qualifications, or generality, specificity and perpetuity. Because my thread largely deals with very basic introductory matters, the overwhelming majority of verses that I quote are 'am and perpetual. By contrast, basically every single verse you quote is specific to a context (circumstantial) and/or non-perpetual (limited to a specific instance), and in some cases, explicitly abrogated by later verses. Some of what you quote is totally incorrect. I wonder about the usefulness of a "Quran explorer" app if you approach it as you do. (Note the "Quran explorer" does provide significantly more accurate translations than those you post)

    Nevertheless, Permit me to quote the following contextually applicable verses:

    "We have sent down The Reminder (The Quran), and We will guard it." (Quran 15:10)
    "...so ask the People of the Reminder if you do not know." (Quran 21:7)

    I suggest you follow that advice. It does not say to ask the people who mock the Reminder (about the Reminder).
    Last edited by wayfarer; 12-09-2012 at 08:32 PM.

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