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Thread: Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

  1. #1

    Arrow Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

    Related Threads: * Introduction to Islam * Muslim call to Christians * Journey through Evolution


    In order to prevent derailing and tangential debates from interfering with the flow and progress of the Introduction to Islam thread, I have created this one. Questions will generally be answered in the original thread, but arguments that become tangential or are of little/no academic value will be redirected here.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 28-08-2014 at 03:16 PM.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by R/SGT View Post
    Mohammaed on his commercial journeys to Syria and Palestine he became acquainted with Jews and Christians, and acquired an imperfect knowledge of their religion and traditions
    There are a number of issues here which make one question the integrity and reasoning ability of the writer:

    • Firstly, one will notice from the quote below that the writer makes an assumption that sources for Prophet Muhammad's biography are "on the whole untrustworthy", "crowded with fictitious details", and are all based on Hadiths which have a "more than doubtful" historical value. Yet, somehow the writer can assert that Prophet Muhammad conducted "journeys to Syria and Palestine", and that Prophet Muhammad "acquired knowledge of their religion", albeit "imperfect". What is the writer's source for this?
    • Secondly, lets consider this idea of perfect (or imperfect) religious knowledge. Did the people which he encountered have perfect doctrinal understandings of their religion? Does anyone have "perfect" understanding of the religion they follow? Which Christian/Jewish sects did he meet? Could his knowledge be regarded as perfect if he gained knowledge about the Gnostic sect which rejects the idea of the crucifixion and the Unitarian Christian sect who rejects Trinity, of which there is an inflection in existence even in the modern world? What if he acquired an excellent knowledge of Catholocism, but found the doctrines of "Trinity"/"Atonement"/"God in the flesh" all too absurd and illogical, and then he executed a fix? How does the writer know that Prophet Muhammad went to Syria and Palestine, and that he acquired imperfect religious knowledge of the Jews and Christians that he met there?

    The sources of Mohammed's biography are numerous, but on the whole untrustworthy, being crowded with fictitious details, legends, and stories. None of his biographies were compiled during his lifetime, and the earliest was written a century and a half after his death. The Koran is perhaps the only reliable source for the leading events in his career. His earliest and chief biographers are Ibn Ishaq (A.H. 151=A.D. 768), Wakidi (207=822), Ibn Hisham (213=828), Ibn Sa'd (230=845), Tirmidhi (279=892), Tabari (310-929), the "Lives of the Companions of Mohammed", the numerous Koranic commentators [especially Tabari, quoted above, Zamakhshari 538=1144), and Baidawi (691=1292)], the "Musnad", or collection of traditions of Ahmad ibn Hanbal (241=855), the collections of Bokhari (256=870), the "Isabah", or "Dictionary of Persons who knew Mohammed", by Ibn Hajar, etc. All these collections and biographies are based on the so-called Hadiths, or "traditions", the historical value of which is more than doubtful.
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm
    Now this piece has a number of serious problems, but that can be understood, given that it comes from the 1910 Catholic Encyclopaedia, and therefore overlooks a number of factors that contemporary Western scholarship is well aware of (such as the inability of the writer of the above quote to distinguish between sira and hadith). While there are still those in Western scholarship today who seek a wholesale discrediting of Hadith works (to the point of denying that Prophet Muhammad ever existed), there are some who have immersed themselves in the works and studied it intensively using Western methods, and have also come to respect the comprehensive Muslim sciences of Hadith, including the academic methods of Hadith veracity and soundness determination. Western scholars of this type include Montgomery Watt and Harald Motzki.

    Islamic sciences are fluid, and they do (in a gradual process) incorporate more modern academic methods as these develop. For this reason, mainstream Muslims attest that the "doors of ijtihad are not closed". Recent and contemporary Muslim scholars that have been instrumental in maintaining the high standards of the Islamic sciences include Fazlur Rahman, Timothy Winter, Jonathon A.C. Brown, Tariq Ramadan, Khalid Blankinship and Hamza Yusuf.

    In the Islamic science of Hadith classification, Hadiths go according to:

    • The reference to a particular authority
    • The links in the isnad (chain of transmission)
    • The number of reporters in each stage of the isnad
    • The manner in which the hadith is reported
    • The nature of the text and isnad
    • A hidden defect found in the isnad or text of a hadith
    • The reliability and memory of the reporters

    Using the above, Hadiths are generally placed in one of the following classes:

    • Sound/authentic
    • Good
    • Weak
    • Fabricated

    Only the most rigorously authenticated Hadiths are used to inform Islamic doctrine and practice.

    I suggest you stick to yor topic of Introduction to Islam and keep off the topic of the christain trinty and religon
    Christianity predates the advent of Prophet Muhammad, and Christians generally reject the idea of any direct reference/prophecy to Prophet Muhammad in their Scripture. However, the Quran came to correct and abrogate earlier Scripture, and so the Quran is far from silent on matters such as Christianity, Jesus Christ and Trinity. To expect a thread on Islam to completely steer clear of topics such as these is therefore unrealistic.

    Furthermore, we live in a Christian majority society and so we are dealing with readers who have at least a basic understanding (some much more than others) of Christianity (be they believers or not), and so a lot of their ideas on Islam are confounded/influenced by Christian concepts. While for the most part Islam is presented without making any comparisons to other faiths and concepts, it is sometimes beneficial for clarity to provide:
    • An explanation on how Islam differs from Christianity on a particular point.
    • Explanations of the possible reasons for the difference.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 09-09-2012 at 06:06 PM.

  3. #3

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    Let's start this again, keeping it on topic.
    "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien." FM Arouet
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
    "Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience" Unknown
    Even duct tape can’t fix stupid… but it can muffle the sound

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by dudewotevr View Post
    Does he still go to "heaven", or is he going to end up somewhere substantially more humid? ..or I suppose it would be more of a dry heat due to the flames..
    This was explained already in another thread. I paste it below for your convenience:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slootvreter View Post
    I know three guys, one is a Muslim, one is a Christian and the other one is a Hindu. I am an atheist.
    Now who is on the wrong path and why?
    Actually, if what is meant by the correct path is "the path to salvation", then all four can be on this path. Forgive the lengthy reply, and I hope that I am not one of the obfuscators...

    A Muslim view can be as follows:

    1. Muslims believe that the Muslim can be on the right path, as this person believes and submits to God according to what Muslims believe is the correct path.

    2. The Christian can be on the path to salvation, even though Islam would judge Christian beliefs to be unacceptable. This would depend on a number of factors. Also, some Muslim scholars include Hindus in this group (People of the Book) as well, and some do not. This is supported by the Quranic verses:

    "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Quran 5:69)
    and
    "Among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) there are some who believe in God and in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them, and who are humble before God. They do not sell God's signs for a paltry price. Such people will have their reward with their Lord. And God is swift at reckoning." (Quran, 3:199)
    and
    "... There is a community among the People of the Book who are upright. They recite God's signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. You will not be denied the reward for any good thing you do. God knows those who guard against evil." (Quran, 3:113-115)

    Furthermore, if the Christian/Hindu lived before the time of Prophet Muhammad, they could still be on the path to salvation if they followed the most recent prophet sent to them by God.

    God says in the Quran, relating to this:

    "To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged." (Quran 10:47)
    and
    "For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve God, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom God guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth)." (Quran 16:36)
    and
    "Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee; and it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by God's leave, but when God's commandment cometh (the cause) is judged aright, and the followers of vanity will then be lost." (Quran 40:78)

    3. The atheist can also be on the path to salvation. And the Muslim scholars who do not place Hindus under point "2." above, place them here.

    The rationale for this is that there may be some peoples who live in isolated villages somewhere, or on remote islands, and to this very day, may not have received the Message. They are not Muslim (or believers in God), but Muslim scholars hold that their path may yet be destined to salvation, as they cannot be blamed for their situation.

    Also, some may have received the Message, but from poor (bad) or hypocritical ambassadors of the Faith, such as from the likes of Bin Laden and his types. It is virtually impossible, today, for people to claim that the message of Islam did not reach them. However, sometimes this message has been perverted beyond recognition, and only the insane or criminally-minded would buy into it in it's polluted form. In reality then, there exists many who have not received the true message, and these people are also not blameworthy, and can be on the path to salvation (whilst being atheist or Hindu).

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    This was explained already in another thread. I paste it below for your convenience:



    Actually, if what is meant by the correct path is "the path to salvation", then all four can be on this path. Forgive the lengthy reply, and I hope that I am not one of the obfuscators...

    A Muslim view can be as follows:

    1. Muslims believe that the Muslim can be on the right path, as this person believes and submits to God according to what Muslims believe is the correct path.

    2. The Christian can be on the path to salvation, even though Islam would judge Christian beliefs to be unacceptable. This would depend on a number of factors. Also, some Muslim scholars include Hindus in this group (People of the Book) as well, and some do not. This is supported by the Quranic verses:

    "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Quran 5:69)
    and
    "Among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) there are some who believe in God and in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them, and who are humble before God. They do not sell God's signs for a paltry price. Such people will have their reward with their Lord. And God is swift at reckoning." (Quran, 3:199)
    and
    "... There is a community among the People of the Book who are upright. They recite God's signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. You will not be denied the reward for any good thing you do. God knows those who guard against evil." (Quran, 3:113-115)

    Furthermore, if the Christian/Hindu lived before the time of Prophet Muhammad, they could still be on the path to salvation if they followed the most recent prophet sent to them by God.

    God says in the Quran, relating to this:

    "To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged." (Quran 10:47)
    and
    "For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve God, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom God guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth)." (Quran 16:36)
    and
    "Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee; and it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by God's leave, but when God's commandment cometh (the cause) is judged aright, and the followers of vanity will then be lost." (Quran 40:78)

    3. The atheist can also be on the path to salvation. And the Muslim scholars who do not place Hindus under point "2." above, place them here.

    The rationale for this is that there may be some peoples who live in isolated villages somewhere, or on remote islands, and to this very day, may not have received the Message. They are not Muslim (or believers in God), but Muslim scholars hold that their path may yet be destined to salvation, as they cannot be blamed for their situation.

    Also, some may have received the Message, but from poor (bad) or hypocritical ambassadors of the Faith, such as from the likes of Bin Laden and his types. It is virtually impossible, today, for people to claim that the message of Islam did not reach them. However, sometimes this message has been perverted beyond recognition, and only the insane or criminally-minded would buy into it in it's polluted form. In reality then, there exists many who have not received the true message, and these people are also not blameworthy, and can be on the path to salvation (whilst being atheist or Hindu).
    Can you just answer yes or no please, is he going to hell, am I as a Kafir going to hell even though I'm mostly a really nice guy who loves his friends and family and pets?

    Can be on the path to salvation, can be on the path to salvation, ..can you highlight the part where you answered me please.
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  6. #6
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    @Wayfarer... you put into words what I can't... Great stuff!
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    @Wayfarer... you put into words what I can't... Great stuff!
    Ye, way to obfuscate, well done.
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    Karmic Sangoma ghoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dudewotevr View Post
    Can you just answer yes or no please, is he going to hell, am I as a Kafir going to hell even though I'm mostly a really nice guy who loves his friends and family and pets?

    Can be on the path to salvation, can be on the path to salvation, ..can you highlight the part where you answered me please.
    +1. An honest yes or no answer would be great.
    Schrodingers immigrants : Simultaneously stealing your job and too lazy to work.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by dudewotevr View Post
    Can you just answer yes or no please, is he going to hell, am I as a Kafir going to hell even though I'm mostly a really nice guy who loves his friends and family and pets?

    Can be on the path to salvation, can be on the path to salvation, ..can you highlight the part where you answered me please.
    I don't know. Am I (wayfarer) going to hell? I don't know. Is moosag going to hell? I don't know. I hope none of us are headed there, and I pray to God to encompass us all with His infinite capacity for Mercy.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
    +1. An honest yes or no answer would be great.
    God alone knows that answer. God commands correct belief and action. However, that is not what will determine salvation. God's Mercy is the only way in which any soul can be saved, and Muslims are required to have hope in God's Mercy.

    This is clearly explained in the Intro thread: The Islamic Concept of Salvation

  11. #11

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    Oh what's that, infinite capacity for mercy you say? So why on earth would it send either of us to hell? Why would you even contemplate the idea that we'd end up there?

    Extremely curious how the religious often waffle on about their arguments from authority.
    These gods sure are an illusive and verbose bunch, ..and my what an ego, worship this, praise that.

    Subjugation.. Such an ugly thing. Apparently it's a virtue.
    Last edited by dudewotevr; 11-09-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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    Formula to Heaven
    --------------------

    Only pure souls go to heaven! So.....

    You have this world to purify your souls
    You have your time in your grave to purify your soul
    You have judgement day (approx 50 000 Earth/Human years) to purify your souls

    If at the end of all of that.... You still go to hell... Then you were one evil Mother F****.....

    Do good deeds!! Give the beggar's at the street corners... Greet strangers... Smile even when you pissed off! Buy your mom flowers. Buy your wife flowers also. Take your kid to the movies. Help a stranger on the side of the road... ETC...

    Someone once told me... Bank it for the after life... i.e. bank your goods for the after life...
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

  13. #13
    Super Grandmaster abzo's Avatar
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    Default Arguments Tossed from Intro to Islam (obviating derails)

    Judgement day = 50 000 human years. Typical bureaucracy.
    i nrrf iy

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    LoL!! How is that bureaucracy???
    Better to Live 1 Day as a Lion then 1000 Years as a Sheep

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    Super Grandmaster abzo's Avatar
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    Default Arguments Tossed from Intro to Islam (obviating derails)

    Quote Originally Posted by moosag View Post
    LoL!! How is that bureaucracy???
    50 000 years? Almost as long as a wait at home affairs.
    i nrrf iy

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