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Thread: A Muslim journey through Creationism and Evolution

  1. #16
    Super Grandmaster porchrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Having ontological views are common to all peoples, whether religious or not, and this factor is generally what impedes hasty changes in views, and not religion per se.
    My stance doesn't impede my scientific understanding or advancement in any way that I am aware of.


    Your assumption, of course, is that Islam is likely false, and therefore it would not be worth it to undergo this journey for "imaginary eternal bliss".
    No my argument is just that Islam can, and does, impede scientific progress. Something people seem reluctant to admit.


    I do not mind that I grappled with science, because the Hereafter (which I have faith in) is of ultimate importance. In my specific example, I do not think that excluding humanity from the ToE was fatal, other than maybe irritating Occam to an extent.
    Of course it was fatal. It was a fundamental misunderstanding and perversion of science. Had your entire society agreed with you they would not have bothered to even investigate human evolution because "well duh, humans didn't evolve!... what a silly notion!! *guffaw guffaw chuckle*".


    I do not see Islam as playing any significant role in the impedance of science.
    Says the guy that underwent a massive journey in order to catch up to current science thanks mainly to his religious beliefs.

    Those societies that don't have to jump through all the hoops you had to have the inside track.

    ... is this maybe a usage of the term "impedance" that I am unaware of?
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    Super Grandmaster falcon786's Avatar
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    Excellent post wayfarer,and I think its about time muslims address this whole evolution debate a lot more seriously,I'm glad that you have done more than just set the ball rolling but have actually tried to formulate a reasonable logical coherent chain of thought that allows muslims to really think about the theory of evolution going forward.

    Theres no point hiding in a corner and playing it safe we need to realize that the theory of evolution is affecting our knowledge base today and to outright deny it would be foolish at best.I have also come to a similar conclusion to yours during my thinking on the subject.

  3. #18
    Super Grandmaster falcon786's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Personalities such as Richard Dawkins did the ToE no favours either in terms of selling it to religious communities. He promotes himself as an evolutionary biologist, but is publicly more actively anti-God than he is pro-evolution. As a result, many lay religious people are enclined to, without much thought, reject this "anti-God" theory.
    Dawkins is not the only one guilty of this,unfortunately many ex-christian atheists just lump Islam as being in the exact same boat as christianity and try to use evolution to disprove the existence of GOD or the relevance of religion.I have experienced it on this forum also,fortunately there are many actual scientific minded individuals and atheists on here who can easily see that evolution does not justify belief in GOD or lack of it,it just explains mechanisms and methods in which organisms of the earth developed to the current state and its very very useful in predicting results of biological actions so that it helps us move forward.

    Even if evolution is somehow proved to be incorrect the fact that it is useful as a model to predict scientific outcomes means it would still be useful to take humanity further,so studying evolution is not a waste of time by any means.A good example of this is Isaac newtons laws of nature were basically overridden by Einsteins theory of relativity,however we still use them to this day to calculate the velocity of a car rather than use relativity because of the predictable results in most scenarios which give us the needed accuracy in results.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerfherder View Post
    ...Blue eyes are dominant, so a mother and a father with blue eyes are going to have a child with blue eyes, its impossible for it to be any different. This is an exact thing, so lets say this was something the creator decided long ago. Blue eyes will be dominant and this will be the rule.

    So then what is the significance of that? Are people with blue eyes special... perhaps people with a certain skin colour are special? are then some people born closer to god then others ?
    I don't know why God did it that way. There are many things I do not know about God's method. There is no doubt that science will uncover some of the mysteries.

    (It was my understanding that blue eye colour was recessive.)

    If the creator is evolution, did he always do it ? When did he start, when did he stop ?
    Please see my post on what the Creator Wills, according to His Power.

    Once you have gone down this path you will see that there is no reason for a creator.
    I am not a proponent of the God of the Gaps argument, so studying and contemplating creation cannot sway me, it can only inspire me. The Quran exhorts its followers to observe, learn and reflect. The Quran manifestly asserts that this would lead to spiritual growth and greater God-consciousness.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 10-07-2013 at 02:58 PM.

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    Very nice post for me tho the journey was allot shorter, it was not much a journey to begin with. I never had such a huge problem accepting evolution when I first heard about it, for me it was more like "dude it makes the most sense", also for me, I never really found evolution as contradictory the teachings of Islam for exactly the same verses quoted in the OP and more. Too me the Quran seemed to say go out and research and make your conclusions on logical deductions, I think in this spirit, the scientific method was produced.

    (I know in the other thread my logic may be questionable, but I would like to think I used logic, irrespective, to get to my conclusion, a false conclusion admittedly)
    Last edited by Mineer; 10-07-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by copacetic View Post
    There we go. This is the crux of the issue. Ingrained beliefs stopping the acquisition of new knowledge in its tracks.
    on the flip side look at me - he thinks it was against his belief - I dont.
    you could say we both educated the same way religiously (same are / community etc) yet we have an opposite view on this,
    Some times the internet is so slow, it would be faster to just fly to Google's headquarters and ask them this $h1t in person.!

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    I must join the chorus in saying, "What a good post". It is great to see someone taking the time and effort to go through this process and truly give ToE the scrutiny and attention that it so sorely needs in the realms of religion.

    I can tell by your writing that my following statement will be something that you have likely considered, but I will put it out there anyway.
    You started off, full on Creationist. After some reading, you saw all the merits of ToE. Had you been raised without a faith, that would have been that. But your faith prevented you from fully adopting ToE into your understanding of the universe. All the while your mind knows that ToE is right, so it demands that you adopt it, so you compromise with your first step. That Everything evolved except humans.

    Likely some research into Human evolution and papers on things like the 23rd(24th?) chromosome fusing led you to realise that you could not keep this opinion valid in your own mind. So you then searched again for a way to reconcile these two ideas. You came across the two bodies hypothesis and this works for you. Because it now leaves you with everything evolving, including us, while adding a soul, that is beyond the realms of science.

    So I will ask, why the soul? I mean for you to consider this outside of your faith. Because you can easily agree that your faith has held you back from accepting something that you know is true. It took you years it seems, to go from first researching ToE, to finally reconciling it with your faith. That process was that long because of your faith, not your critical mind's lack of ability to understand the subject matter.

    This is not meant sarcastically or patronisingly at all:
    So you bring the Soul in to "Save your Faith", from the ToE. Why do that when you can already see how much your faith has hindered you in understanding the amazing world that your God created? Surely your God would not want to hinder you from appreciating his magnificent creation. Do you see the conundrum that is inherent in the current position you hold?

  8. #23
    Super Grandmaster porchrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon786 View Post
    Dawkins is not the only one guilty of this,unfortunately many ex-christian atheists just lump Islam as being in the exact same boat as christianity and try to use evolution to disprove the existence of GOD or the relevance of religion.I have experienced it on this forum also,fortunately there are many actual scientific minded individuals and atheists on here who can easily see that evolution does not justify belief in GOD or lack of it,it just explains mechanisms and methods in which organisms of the earth developed to the current state and its very very useful in predicting results of biological actions so that it helps us move forward.
    Well said. If someone is trying to use evolution to demonstrate that deities don't exist then that individual has failed to understand what science is about.

    We get far too many people, and I agree I have seen some on this forum that do it, trying to use science to disprove the existence of a deity. Science can only be used to challenge claims made concerning the physical.


    Even if evolution is somehow proved to be incorrect the fact that it is useful as a model to predict scientific outcomes means it would still be useful to take humanity further,so studying evolution is not a waste of time by any means.A good example of this is Isaac newtons laws of nature were basically overridden by Einsteins theory of relativity,however we still use them to this day to calculate the velocity of a car rather than use relativity because of the predictable results in most scenarios which give us the needed accuracy in results.
    I imagine we will see the theory of evolution change in some interesting ways over the next few decades. There are some interesting things happening that may have some impact.

    As to whether or not evolution hangs around if it is falsified I'm not sure. Perhaps it will be falsified in such a manner that it is rendered entirely useless and chucked out altogether. That would be amazing and if it happens I hope to live long enough to see it.
    "The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" -Abraham Lincoln, 1864

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    Quote Originally Posted by isie View Post
    on the flip side look at me - he thinks it was against his belief - I dont.
    you could say we both educated the same way religiously (same are / community etc) yet we have an opposite view on this,
    Even within a religion beliefs will differ from person to person. Thing is that if you believe something must be correct, without question, then, if ever something scientific arises that demonstrates that what you believe is wrong it will impede scientific progress.

    If it is just you believing this then the impedance will be small, almost imperceptible. However if that belief is shared by a lot of people (as is this anti-evolution thing amongst Muslims and a schit load of Christians) then the impedance is going to be large.
    "The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" -Abraham Lincoln, 1864

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerfherder View Post
    Blue eyes are dominant, so a mother and a father with blue eyes are going to have a child with blue eyes, its impossible for it to be any different. This is an exact thing, so lets say this was something the creator decided long ago. Blue eyes will be dominant and this will be the rule.
    Blue eyes are recessive. Brown eyes are dominant.

    Though this is not strictly true BTW. Blue eyes just follows the rough behaviour one would expect in a recessive gene variant but eye colour is actually far more complex.

    Still with the exception of a few cases, blue is recessive.
    Last edited by porchrat; 10-07-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaJohn View Post
    Great read wayfarer.

    Just one small note, and sorry to be pedantic, but scientifically speaking, you have a "small hypothesis" not "mini-theory". In Science theory can be tested and replicated, i doubt the same can be done with your hypothesis.
    Much appreciated. I edited this correction into the original piece. Thanks.

    I find it interesting that a couple of years after I "published" this small hypothesis online, some religious scholars are actually presenting it as their own. But I couldn't be bothered...

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Much appreciated. I edited this correction into the original piece. Thanks.

    I find it interesting that a couple of years after I "published" this small hypothesis online, some religious scholars are actually presenting it as their own. But I couldn't be bothered...
    Sue them and take your rightful place as a leading scholar. Then I can brag that I know you!!!
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  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulTax View Post
    I must join the chorus in saying, "What a good post". It is great to see someone taking the time and effort to go through this process and truly give ToE the scrutiny and attention that it so sorely needs in the realms of religion.

    I can tell by your writing that my following statement will be something that you have likely considered, but I will put it out there anyway.
    You started off, full on Creationist. After some reading, you saw all the merits of ToE. Had you been raised without a faith, that would have been that. But your faith prevented you from fully adopting ToE into your understanding of the universe. All the while your mind knows that ToE is right, so it demands that you adopt it, so you compromise with your first step. That Everything evolved except humans.

    Likely some research into Human evolution and papers on things like the 23rd(24th?) chromosome fusing led you to realise that you could not keep this opinion valid in your own mind. So you then searched again for a way to reconcile these two ideas. You came across the two bodies hypothesis and this works for you. Because it now leaves you with everything evolving, including us, while adding a soul, that is beyond the realms of science.

    So I will ask, why the soul? I mean for you to consider this outside of your faith. Because you can easily agree that your faith has held you back from accepting something that you know is true. It took you years it seems, to go from first researching ToE, to finally reconciling it with your faith. That process was that long because of your faith, not your critical mind's lack of ability to understand the subject matter.

    This is not meant sarcastically or patronisingly at all:
    So you bring the Soul in to "Save your Faith", from the ToE. Why do that when you can already see how much your faith has hindered you in understanding the amazing world that your God created? Surely your God would not want to hinder you from appreciating his magnificent creation. Do you see the conundrum that is inherent in the current position you hold?
    That is a fair question. The answer is that it is not my faith that hindered me, but my understanding.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by porchrat View Post
    Sue them and take your rightful place as a leading scholar. Then I can brag that I know you!!!
    Lol, I would genuinely be dishonest if I did not acknowledge the positive role that you, porchrat, played in my journey.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    That is a fair question. The answer is that it is not my faith that hindered me, but my understanding.
    I know you might say that, but it is clear from your writing that this is not entirely true. After looking into ToE and obviously understanding enough about it and it's implications, you backtracked and sought out a religious answer which you found in the "Everything but man hypothesis." Someone not affiliated to religion, with an equal intellect to yours, would have simply accepted it and possibly read more into it out of interest.
    If you truly believe that statement, that it was your understanding that was lacking, then it is even more tragic. Because it is evident to anyone reading your initial post that your mind was more than up to the task, but religion not only hindered you, it also has you convinced that you are less intelligent than you are.

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