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Thread: A Muslim journey through Creationism and Evolution

  1. #31
    Super Grandmaster porchrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Lol, I would genuinely be dishonest if I did not acknowledge the positive role that you, porchrat, played in my journey.
    Be sure to thank me in the acknowledgements when you write your first book so I can put it on my coffee table and 'accidentally' leave it open to that page when people come to visit.
    "The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" -Abraham Lincoln, 1864

  2. #32
    Super Grandmaster SoulTax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by porchrat View Post
    Be sure to thank me in the acknowledgements when you write your first book so I can put it on my coffee table and 'accidentally' leave it open to that page when people come to visit.
    Your real name is Porchrat!?

  3. #33
    Super Grandmaster porchrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulTax View Post
    Your real name is Porchrat!?
    Shoot you have a point.

    I will just have to have my name legally changed. There is no other solution.
    "The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" -Abraham Lincoln, 1864

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulTax View Post
    I know you might say that, but it is clear from your writing that this is not entirely true. After looking into ToE and obviously understanding enough about it and it's implications, you backtracked and sought out a religious answer which you found in the "Everything but man hypothesis." Someone not affiliated to religion, with an equal intellect to yours, would have simply accepted it and possibly read more into it out of interest.
    If you truly believe that statement, that it was your understanding that was lacking, then it is even more tragic. Because it is evident to anyone reading your initial post that your mind was more than up to the task, but religion not only hindered you, it also has you convinced that you are less intelligent than you are.
    I am not saying that. My limited understanding of science and of my religion (God's words / Islamic doctrine) held me back. Note that I did not know with absolute certainty that man evolved, heck, I still do not have absolute certainty in it. Even after my research, my knowledge remains limited. But it certainly is the view I feel most comfortable adopting.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 10-07-2013 at 04:22 PM.

  5. #35
    Super Grandmaster SoulTax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    I am not saying that. My faulty understanding of my religion (God's words / Islamic doctrine) held me back.
    Okay slight misunderstanding there then. This is still a statement that shows that your religion held you back. I know it doesn't seem that way to you, but honestly from outside of the box it is truly plain as day. It was not your Faulty understanding of your religion that held you back. But your need to find an interpretation of your religion, that could include ToE.
    If you took religion out of that equation, you would have simply accepted the science and moved on. This is why we say that religion impedes scientific advancement. It doesn't even have to admonish scientific inquiry in it's scripture, it merely has to have a hold on you, and you will do all the impeding yourself.

  6. #36

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    Great writing and great post, Wayfarer.

    Wayfarer, have you read Tauriq Moosa's blog posts?

  7. #37
    Super Grandmaster falcon786's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by porchrat View Post
    Says the guy that underwent a massive journey in order to catch up to current science thanks mainly to his religious beliefs.

    Those societies that don't have to jump through all the hoops you had to have the inside track.

    ... is this maybe a usage of the term "impedance" that I am unaware of?
    I have to say I did not have that barrier,I live my life according to islamic principles and do my science according to mathematically and logically sound principles,I've never felt the need to always reconcile any perceived differences because I know there can be different interpretations related to the times.

    I cant see Islam as a barrier to any of the scientific minded individuals I know that are science orientated and many remain devout muslims.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulTax View Post
    Okay slight misunderstanding there then. This is still a statement that shows that your religion held you back. I know it doesn't seem that way to you, but honestly from outside of the box it is truly plain as day. It was not your Faulty understanding of your religion that held you back. But your need to find an interpretation of your religion, that could include ToE.
    If you took religion out of that equation, you would have simply accepted the science and moved on. This is why we say that religion impedes scientific advancement. It doesn't even have to admonish scientific inquiry in it's scripture, it merely has to have a hold on you, and you will do all the impeding yourself.
    That's quite an interesting observation. It is actually applicable to the adoption of any belief without a proper understanding as to the underlying reason(s) for the belief.

    And that leads us to conclude that most laymen should hold no beliefs, and experts are only allowed beliefs in their field of expertise, and only insofar as they are able to comprehend the underlying reason(s) for said beliefs.

    As far as I can see, that's the only way science will not be "held back". In wayfarer's case (it appears) his lack of understanding for the belief in creationism led him on a long road to his hypothesis.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustAsk View Post
    gEEZUZ, is it an "IN" thing to be so incredibly ignorant?

  9. #39
    The Special One Maverick Jester's Avatar
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    Thanks for the read, wayfarer. Well written, and I believe that we all appreciate the transformative nature of the post.
    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory."

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeStanler View Post
    Great writing and great post, Wayfarer.

    Wayfarer, have you read Tauriq Moosa's blog posts?
    No, are you a patron?

  11. #41
    Ulysses Everett McGill OrbitalDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by porchrat View Post
    Thanks for being the only one not too lazy to fetch the actual figures

    See, I knew the Hindus would be cool with evolution. Hindus are so chilled in general that I expect they are cool with just about anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunSA View Post
    They have their share of crazies. But those tend to be a really small minority.
    They're generally chilled. Unless they're these guys...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_Sena

    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer
    God effected and selected mutations according to His Will, through "natural" processes and systems created by Him.
    Do you follow this through to its conclusion? Because that means God chose and willingly enabled the horrible genetic defects that people are born with, kills children either before they're born or shortly after. It also includes ebola, TB, flesh-eating viruses, the worm that buries itself in the eyes of children and then proceeds to eat its way out, bubonic plague, AIDS and a whole host of other diseases that has inflicted immense suffering upon millions/billions of people for millennia.
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrbitalDawn View Post
    Do you follow this through to its conclusion? Because that means God chose and willingly enabled the horrible genetic defects that people are born with, kills children either before they're born or shortly after. It also includes ebola, TB, flesh-eating viruses, the worm that buries itself in the eyes of children and then proceeds to eat its way out, bubonic plague, AIDS and a whole host of other diseases that has inflicted immense suffering upon millions/billions of people for millennia.
    Good question.

    Please see post: Facilitation of Good & Evil

  13. #43
    Super Grandmaster AlphaJohn's Avatar
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    Wow, now this is intresting, after reading your view I came across this article via a reddit thread.

    Some interesting views put across.

  14. #44
    Ulysses Everett McGill OrbitalDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Good question.

    Please see post: Facilitation of Good & Evil
    Yeah, I read it. It's a massive copout, sorry.
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    I don't know why God did it that way. There are many things I do not know about God's method. There is no doubt that science will uncover some of the mysteries.
    How can you say that, when you have yet, after all these years, failed to show how you "Know" that God is real. We understand and accept that you believe God to be real, but that does not give you the right to say that you know or do not know something about someone you have not shown to be real. Your sentence would have just as much meaning as saying "I don't know why Zeus did it that way" and that is the problem.

    Evolution works without the need for gods, and this is the problem that the religious acknowledge, it makes their gods unneeded, which in turn places huge cracks in their belief system and destroys the control these systems have over the lay people. This is something that the religious leaders do not want.

    Starting an argument with an invalid premise or unproven assumption, that a Gods can exist, usually means the rest of the argument is automatically invalid.

    Evolution is a fact, whether or not the religious believe it to be so, either show it to be false or change your religious position. Humans evolved from pond scum and not from Adam, your holy books are plain wrong, in total and on every page.

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