Islam as Primordiality

[Fury05]

What multitude? care to expand?

I don't think there is an objective study done or verifiable stats collected on people who have left Islam. I am making an assumption based on my own experiences. The claims of people leaving Islam made by anti Islamic or anti Religious groups cannot be viewed as objective and therefore I will refrain from quoting them.

Even if we were to assume my assumption is incorrect, as I pointed out the minimal number of people killed for apostasy is relatively small (but not insignificant, see my explanation in post #70). My assumption is then based on the fact that if what we are told is true, that many Muslims leave Islam due to whatever reason and get to speak out as an ex-Muslim, we can then assume that generally people are not killed for apostasy. As I indicated in post #70, ostracism from their community and family is another debate. I'm sure you can find many testimonies from ex Muslims fearing for their life etc. You would however find that on the other side of the coin there would be no benefit (or catchy headline) from speaking out as an ex Muslim where nothing had happened to you.

Without an objective study, we are left with assumptions based on nothing really. If you know of a study that I have not seen please direct me to it.

[DMNknight]

So now you are answering on behalf of Islam? Cool. So Islam is a religion of kindness and peace? Strange that Sunni and Shia muslims seem to be killing each other almost daily. And that most of the conflicts in the world today are in the name of this religion. But I digress.

Obviously I'm caught up in the man-made consequences for actions. I don't believe in deities that hide in the sky and refuse to show their faces. I am very intrigued though how you claim to know how to discern the hand of god or man in the scriptures. So you saying that some of the scriptures are man made then?

Another question, this idea that god didn't and doesn't appear to us in order that we have free will - is this stated in the scriptures, or is it a man made concept?

Oh yes - I don't think anyone answered what the post-death consequence is for being a "god-denier" according to Islam?

Having read the Quran cover to cover, I can offer some insight, having done so with other religious texts.

The Sunhi and Shia muslims are similar in localised (and therefore man made) laws in how the religion should be practised. I would point out that christianity, buddhism and hinduism suffer from exactly the same division.
Religion (to date) has a VERY bad track record because people use it to kill and murder with impunity. In fact, religion to date has been the biggest cause of wars and human killings, outranking even World War 1 & 2 combined.

Religion and the people that practise it have far from stellar records.

I have explained several times in how I discern the hand of man or god in the scriptures, I don't think I'll be repeating myself.

The appearance of god at the will of man, even of men of absolute belief, collapses the idea of absolute free will because the choice to believe is no longer a belief but an absolute fact.
Take for example, a wife who says to her husband "If you love me..."
If he does as she asks, she will be undermining her belief in his love for her because did he do it because he loves her? or did he do so because that what he should do if he loves her?

Reasonably so, the collapse of belief into certainy, the appearance of god to man. After the appearance, you actions will be determined by a concrete knowledge that if you were not to do so, you would go to hell.
This would not make good people, just people that behaved like good people.

It is most definitely a god made scripture, because the nature of free will existed before man did. Otherwise, why go to all the trouble of a universe...

[Splinter]

Having read the Quran cover to cover, I can offer some insight, having done so with other religious texts.

So, before when you claimed a couple of times you were not answering on behalf of islam, you were making a wee fib?

The Sunhi and Shia muslims are similar in localised (and therefore man made) laws in how the religion should be practised. I would point out that christianity, buddhism and hinduism suffer from exactly the same division.
Religion (to date) has a VERY bad track record because people use it to kill and murder with impunity. In fact, religion to date has been the biggest cause of wars and human killings, outranking even World War 1 & 2 combined.

Religion and the people that practise it have far from stellar records....

What's the point of this? Why bring in other religions (although no need to preach to the converted on this point). I was just digressing on your point that Islam is a religion of "peace and kindness". I do notice how you avoided my point about most conflicts in the world today involving Islam (and not other religions).

I have explained several times in how I discern the hand of man or god in the scriptures, I don't think I'll be repeating myself....

Perhaps you should repeat the reading of the actual question I posed. I don't care how you claim to do it, I am querying the fact that your claim seems to indicate that some of the content of the scriptures is man-made (and hence not the word of god..)

The appearance of god at the will of man, even of men of absolute belief, collapses the idea of absolute free will because the choice to believe is no longer a belief but an absolute fact.
Take for example, a wife who says to her husband "If you love me..."
If he does as she asks, she will be undermining her belief in his love for her because did he do it because he loves her? or did he do so because that what he should do if he loves her?

Reasonably so, the collapse of belief into certainy, the appearance of god to man. After the appearance, you actions will be determined by a concrete knowledge that if you were not to do so, you would go to hell.
This would not make good people, just people that behaved like good people....

Besides the gawky nature of what you post, what exactly are you trying to answer here?

It is most definitely a god made scripture, because the nature of free will existed before man did. Otherwise, why go to all the trouble of a universe...

Likewise with this part of your post - what are you answering? It's a simple question - does the scripture itself say that god did not appear, nor will he again, in order that we have free will?


And still waiting on the answer as to what the Quran states are the consequences for not believing in god (upon death).

[DMNknight]

So, before when you claimed a couple of times you were not answering on behalf of islam, you were making a wee fib?

You're very determined to see things your way and be as confrontational as possible. Possibly a troll, I don't really care.
Speaking on behalf of Islam is not the same as having read the Quran from cover to cover, as well as a few other religious bibles/scriptures/books/etc. It grants me a certain amount of insight into a religion without making me an expert.
Just like reading a recipe book doesn't make me a master chef.

What's the point of this? Why bring in other religions (although no need to preach to the converted on this point). I was just digressing on your point that Islam is a religion of "peace and kindness". I do notice how you avoided my point about most conflicts in the world today involving Islam (and not other religions).

Other religions suffer from the same human flaws as does Islam. All of the religions that I have read the bibles of, just generally say "Be a good person". Murder, war and everything that leads from those things are not being good to your fellow man and therefore not very religious.
Coming back to your original beef with Free will and "not" choosing Islam. It is not very Islamic (or other) to ostracize or murder someone who does not believe. It's a very human control thing and not good for the soul at all.

You're very focused on answers from the Islamic faith (as if you're very determined to attack it), when the answers are equally true and can be found, elsewhere.

Perhaps you should repeat the reading of the actual question I posed. I don't care how you claim to do it, I am querying the fact that your claim seems to indicate that some of the content of the scriptures is man-made (and hence not the word of god..)

Of course there are parts of scripture written and influenced by man. I think the first post in this topic even says as much...

Besides the gawky nature of what you post, what exactly are you trying to answer here?

Likewise with this part of your post - what are you answering? It's a simple question - does the scripture itself say that god did not appear, nor will he again, in order that we have free will?

You're presenting as if you are finding it hard to grasp the fundamental principle of the nature of Free will.

And still waiting on the answer as to what the Quran states are the consequences for not believing in god.

I can point out that the christian god did show a small part of his back to Moses and it left him blind for a couple of days. If you want to get all caught up in the details you can google it
I can't say what it says in the counter part of the similar texts in the Quran.

What is your purpose in this post? Right now you're reading as if you're angry with islam for expelling you from your life because you do not believe in the religion you were brought up in. Seeking ways to attack and belittle it.

Are you really here at the behest of your soul, or to try and corner a religious person in the paradoxes of their faith?

[Splinter]

You're very determined to see things your way and be as confrontational as possible. Possibly a troll, I don't really care.
Speaking on behalf of Islam is not the same as having read the Quran from cover to cover, as well as a few other religious bibles/scriptures/books/etc. It grants me a certain amount of insight into a religion without making me an expert.
Just like reading a recipe book doesn't make me a master chef.

Oh, here we go again. "Troll", "angry", "attack and belittle". The usual cop-outs

*hears the sound Imranpanji's brain exploding in the distance *

Btw - is this "confrontation" not just how you perceive it to be?


Anyway, so you are not an expert on religion now. Yet you made pretty absolute statements previously about religion, faith and souls. Are these statements now, by your own admission, non-expert opinions then?

Other religions suffer from the same human flaws as does Islam. All of the religions that I have read the bibles of, just generally say "Be a good person". Murder, war and everything that leads from those things are not being good to your fellow man and therefore not very religious.
Coming back to your original beef with Free will and "not" choosing Islam. It is not very Islamic (or other) to ostracize or murder someone who does not believe. It's a very human control thing and not good for the soul at all.

I've parked this issue for the moment (the apostasy thing). But what has it got to do with my point that you avoided my comment on Islam being involved in most of todays conflicts? Looks like you avoiding it again...

You're very focused on answers from the Islamic faith (as if you're very determined to attack it), when the answers are equally true and can be found, elsewhere.

This is a thread about Islam. You're very focused on defending Islam, it seems. Strange, you keep on claiming you are not here on behalf of Islam, but your every post screams otherwise. Like I said before, I find your behavior somewhat deceitful.

Go read other threads; you will see I am pretty much the same when other religions are the topic of discussion.

Of course there are parts of scripture written and influenced by man. I think the first post in this topic even says as much...

So, you were going on before about ignoring the man made stuff and focusing on gods word. In other words, by your own admission, some of the scriptures are suspect. Would that be correct?

Next, can you explain to me how you say you are not a religious expert, but then claim you can determine gods words versus mens in the scriptures. Has anyone else ever claimed this ability?

You're presenting as if you are finding it hard to grasp the fundamental principle of the nature of Free will.

say what?

I can point out that the christian god did show a small part of his back to Moses and it left him blind for a couple of days. If you want to get all caught up in the details you can google it
I can't say what it says in the counter part of the similar texts in the Quran.

Seriously dude, can you just answer "yes" or "no". Does the scripture state the reason that god has not shown his face is because of concern for mans free will?

What is your purpose in this post? Right now you're reading as if you're angry with islam for expelling you from your life because you do not believe in the religion you were brought up in. Seeking ways to attack and belittle it.

It's pretty obvious what my purpose is. The defence raised by you and others as to why this god is hiding in the sky was to preserve mans free will. If this is a man made concept, then it is no defence at all - and is also subject to your earlier dismissal of "man made" influences.

And "angry"? LOL. Nee wat, I just don't like nonsense being spouted as the truth.

Are you really here at the behest of your soul, or to try and corner a religious person in the paradoxes of their faith?

WTF? What do you not understand about me being an atheist? "behest of my soul". Good golly.

But if you still don't get it, I am here because I don't like certain threads becoming pulpits for proselytizing without being challenged or debated.

[DMNknight]

Oh, here we go again. "Troll", "angry", "attack and belittle". The usual cop-outs

*hears the sound Imranpanji's brain exploding in the distance *

Btw - is this "confrontation" not just how you perceive it to be?

Cute tu quoque, and cop out without actually adding anything.

Anyway, so you are not an expert on religion now. Yet you made pretty absolute statements previously about religion, faith and souls. Are these statements now, by your own admission, non-expert opinions then?

Trying to corner me into a black & white answer with a strawman attack is cute, but amateurish.
As per the tautologies you like, just because I can practice and understand binary logic, doesn't make me capable of making a processor right now. Given more education and experience I can.

One more tautology for you... Just because I am not Islamic, does not make me incapable of using my brain and arguing against you when you were at one point presenting as if you were genuinely seeking answers. At this point in time, I would argue that I am more capable than you are of arguing the point.

I've parked this issue for the moment (the apostasy thing). But what has it got to do with my point that you avoided my comment on Islam being involved in most of todays conflicts? Looks like you avoiding it again...

Oh look you're shifting the goalposts as soon as someone challenges you into understanding a simple concept. I did not see that coming! *gasp*
-.-

This is a thread about Islam. You're very focused on defending Islam, it seems. Strange, you keep on claiming you are not here on behalf of Islam, but your every post screams otherwise. Like I said before, I find your behavior somewhat deceitful.

Go read other threads; you will see I am pretty much the same when other religions are the topic of discussion.

Yeah I have/am and in all other threads you read like someone who is unable to stand their ground in a good argument. You deflect, shift goal posts, preach from the perceived higher moral ground and do everything to undermine an argument without actually adding something of value or substance to it.

So, you were going on before about ignoring the man made stuff and focusing on gods word. In other words, by your own admission, some of the scriptures are suspect. Would that be correct?

More of that black/white argument crap. Go read what I have said and come to a conclusion of your own.

Next, can you explain to me how you say you are not a religious expert, but then claim you can determine gods words versus mens in the scriptures. Has anyone else ever claimed this ability?

I have stated my methodology in plain text. How hard is that to grasp?
Must I repeat myself? (You seem to like that)

say what?

Indeed.

Seriously dude, can you just answer "yes" or "no". Does the scripture state the reason that god has not shown his face is because of concern for mans free will?

Seriously dude, almost every religious text is google-able these days. Go search for it yourself if this is so important to you.
Or would reading a religious text actually offend your atheist nature in actually teaching you something about the things you argue against?

It's pretty obvious what my purpose is. The defence raised by you and others as to why this god is hiding in the sky was to preserve mans free will. If this is a man made concept, then it is no defence at all - and is also subject to your earlier dismissal of "man made" influences.

And "angry"? LOL. Nee wat, I just don't like nonsense being spouted as the truth.

WTF? What do you not understand about me being an atheist? "behest of my soul". Good golly.

But if you still don't get it, I am here because I don't like certain threads becoming pulpits for proselytizing without being challenged or debated.

So in summation, you have nothing worthwhile to add to a discussion or introduction/explanation of Islam to those who are curious, but you most definitely have an opinion about something you know nothing about, seeing as you can't even research a simple thing like whether or not God showed his back to man or not.
(and that you returned like a dog to a supposedly buried bone to the same topic presumable parked for now)

You're merely here to waste the time of someone who has something you don't and it aggravates you. So cute

I am not Islamic, but I have an immense respect to the practitioners who see that it is a non violent religion, just like Christianity and other religions are supposed to be.

People are the evil one's in the equation, doesn't matter which way you try an argue it.
Just to tautologise that for you... Guns don't fire themselves, it's a person that pulls the trigger.

[Splinter]

/snip.

Damn, but this is funny. The hug a tree, save your soul façade has slipped and out come the usual insults and strawman accusations

Plus actually avoiding answering anything really. What a surprise...

Edit: off to team braai shortly; will save answering this gem for later

Double edit: now that the façade has slipped, your style of posting and making emotional accusations to deflect reminds me of someone. I was wondering who's 13 year old clone you were; now wondering even more

[DMNknight]

Damn, but this is funny. The hug a tree, save your soul façade has slipped and out come the usual insults and strawman accusations

Plus actually avoiding answering anything really. What a surprise...

Edit: off to team braai shortly; will save answering this gem for later

If you were here to try and solve some dilemma of your soul I would gladly explain everything to you three times over.
However, you're not and you admitted as much. Therefore you're just here to waste time and argue from a viewpoint based on ignorance.

Even a 5 year old can ask "Why?" twenty times in a row. It's when that child gets older that they understand that just asking why endlessly is to no point whatsoever and only serves to alienate the person with whom you are having a discussion.

Call it a lesson I have learned and not the last one for sure.

[Splinter]

Therefore you're just here to waste time and argue from a viewpoint based on ignorance.

Wow. So every atheist argues from a position of ignorance? Hmm. Interesting.

[Splinter]

Cute tu quoque, and cop out without actually adding anything.

While it always impressive to quote Latin, it is not really so when you don't get it right.

It seems you missed it, but my comment about "how you perceive it to be" was a play on your own words in the other thread when you were defending xargies arrogance.

Trying to corner me into a black & white answer with a strawman attack is cute, but amateurish.
As per the tautologies you like, just because I can practice and understand binary logic, doesn't make me capable of making a processor right now. Given more education and experience I can.

You do not seem to understand the meaning of tautology. Or strawman. Me pointing out your shifting standards is not such. You deflecting by throwing out terms you do not understand, is understandable (as in not a surprise).

One more tautology for you... Just because I am not Islamic, does not make me incapable of using my brain and arguing against you when you were at one point presenting as if you were genuinely seeking answers. At this point in time, I would argue that I am more capable than you are of arguing the point.

I would argue that as you do not understand the words you are using, you are certainly not more capable...

Oh look you're shifting the goalposts as soon as someone challenges you into understanding a simple concept. I did not see that coming! *gasp*
-.-

Again, you deflect. You almost sound like...

Yeah I have/am and in all other threads you read like someone who is unable to stand their ground in a good argument. You deflect, shift goal posts, preach from the perceived higher moral ground and do everything to undermine an argument without actually adding something of value or substance to it.

Emotive words without substance. Much like the scriptures, neh.

I have stated my methodology in plain text. How hard is that to grasp?
Must I repeat myself? (You seem to like that)

Must I repeat myself? I have stated before that I know how you claim to do it. I asked if anyone else claims to be able to be able to do it. Stop squirming.

Seriously dude, almost every religious text is google-able these days. Go search for it yourself if this is so important to you.
Or would reading a religious text actually offend your atheist nature in actually teaching you something about the things you argue against?

Seriously dude, stop squirming. It's a simple yes or no answer. Why do you fear answering it

And you claimed earlier to have read the Quran from cover to cover. If you can't answer this (or wayfarer), wanting me to read this myself is rather ridiculous.

So in summation, you have nothing worthwhile to add to a discussion or introduction/explanation of Islam to those who are curious, but you most definitely have an opinion about something you know nothing about, seeing as you can't even research a simple thing like whether or not God showed his back to man or not.
(and that you returned like a dog to a supposedly buried bone to the same topic presumable parked for now)

Those who are curious are exactly the reason why I post here. To show how inane your statements and responses are when they are challenged. And the rest of this post? Stopid in the extreme.

You're merely here to waste the time of someone who has something you don't and it aggravates you. So cute

Sigh. What's cute is you don't get that I reject what you think you have.

I am not Islamic, but I have an immense respect to the practitioners who see that it is a non violent religion, just like Christianity and other religions are supposed to be.

Yep - supposed to be. Yet they are not. Although your subtle wording makes it sound like it is just Christianity and other religions that "are supposed to be". Yep, you truly are not biased

People are the evil one's in the equation, doesn't matter which way you try an argue it.

Again that lack of comprehension from you - where did I ever argue against this?

Just to tautologise that for you...

Finally you got it right!

[DMNknight]

Let's rewind a bit because this is getting seriously off the topic at hand, in which you and I originally engaged in the question(s) below.
I have no intent other than to share what I think and believe. I admit to becoming somewhat irrational in the face of the irrational.

I am well read in a lot of scriptures and bibles. I am not of any one orgnaised religion but I have an immense and deep respect for many of them.

So, to summarise, one must have faith in a god that doesn't show itself, to demonstrate one has faith. A statement that has been created by mankind to explain its absence? "It cannot be any other way", as said above. @wayfarer - please let me know if god itself said this.

This is where you have repeatedly just confused the principle of Free Will and seemingly take issue with a God that does not show itself in order to verify its existence.

In my original response, I argued that a being that could create the big bang, create the laws of physics and set off a chain reaction that would result in the coalesence of the planets to eventually create our solar system, the earth and eventually a carbon based molecule & lightning catalyst that would set in motion a chain of events that would eventually create DNA and end up with Human beings.

Such a being, if you read the various scriptures, seemed to prize being able to create humanity with all that he set in motion. That Free will was amongst everything the most precious of gifts. After all, such things such as love cannot be coerced but earned.

A being of such vast intelligence and ability would also recognise that Free Will could not co-exist with absolute knowledge of said existence. Yet he clearly wants those who use that gift and are good to the gift(s) he has given them, to join him wherever he is.

In so, Free will must be exercised in choosing to be a good person, one that has had good impact in other peoples lives, one that has saved others, loved others and been good in general. Yes it's a rather lacklustre explanation of what is required, but its the best I can do in such a small space.

Further, to show itself is to remove free will - yet those who exercise such free will and do not believe are "god-deniers" according to you? Where is the free will in that, if you label people such?

See this is where you are getting confused again. God not showing itself does not cause those who do nto believe in him to be called god-deniers or apostates. Correlation does not imply causation.
The actions upon apostates are not by God's hand, but at the hands of mortal men who seek to control through mortal consequence.

This is where the relevance and seperation between God and man made scriptures should be made. It is important to place the responsibility at the feet of those responsible.

And then you go on to say that even should god reveal itself, you state that it would be dismissed forthwith with disparaging comments from the atheists. Hmm. @imaranpanji - this is what you call a cop out.

This is because not all human beings are truly rational. They are constantly influenced by cognitive bias. We ignore things such as global warming, genetically modified foods and the bias of big pharma to keep people sick. However, we get riled up at cross ethnic marriages, same gender marriages and that some religious person sexually abused children.

This is not a rational world. However, rationality is needed. Rationality is one of the gifts of intelligence that we squander.

By the way, wayfarer, you still haven't answered the question as to why the visitation to a few individuals only, in an isolated geographical location, when it would have prevented thousands (if not millions) of deaths by just appearing once to folks all over the globe.

...and finally we come back to the whole showing himself thing and placing the deaths of innocents at the feet of God.
I stated (and repeated repeatedly) that God is not in it for your life, but for your soul.
Also, Man and man alone is responsible for the death and tragedy that falls on him because of faith or lack thereof.

Had God shown himself to folks all over the globe, folks would have reacted in a multitude of ways (Re: the cognitive bias explained above) but it would not have completely eradicated the deaths of thousands (if not millions).
But at the cost of free will and the loss of all souls. The price is simply too high for no gain whatsoever.

Finally:
There is a lot that is not discussed such as why Free will is so important and how the devil (or whatever name is given) inlfuences man to do everything that is bad for his soul.