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Thread: Colonialism wasn't all badé says Helen Zille

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian, Conan View Post
    To be honest, I don't care what anyone believes wrt Africans catching up to the first world ito technology. There is no way to prove any of it, it is all speculation. It is a fact that they were behind in 1652. There's no denying that.
    Although, to say that they would never have caught up to the point where they have running water, electricity, roads etc (even in some parts) is racist. It implies that they could never do what the rest of the world could do. Even if you believe it is true, you have to see how black people would be offended by it.
    where do you come with racist? is this all you see? careful not to become it.

    every civilisation/society on this planet fought with and conquered another. the one with the better things(their things are better therefor/because they won!) put it in place over the other. it then incorporated the things of the conquered to get even better, until it met another who is more advanced, then the same happened to it. there is no speculating this.

    there were already roads with street lamps and water pipes etc. in the world that time already. when were people here going to decide to catch up if they had not done that already then.

    if you leave a normal human hunter gatherer society alone completely, how long will it take for it to invent "running water, electricity, roads etc"? 366 years or thousands of years.?

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    So the fact that our Zulu and Xhosa brothers and sisters came from the north and colinised our country had no benefits at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBSA View Post
    So the fact that our Zulu and Xhosa brothers and sisters came from the north and colinised our country had no benefits at all?
    No, when they arrived it was all beneficial to the locals, only positives to be had, its when they themselves were colonised, thats when it was only negative
    Quote Originally Posted by Temujin View Post
    It is their culture, they are proud, let them be

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temujin View Post
    No, when they arrived it was all beneficial to the locals, only positives to be had, its when they themselves were colonised, thats when it was only negative
    They are a bunch of hypocrites.
    Last edited by BBSA; 14-06-2018 at 02:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by access View Post
    where do you come with racist? is this all you see? careful not to become it.

    every civilisation/society on this planet fought with and conquered another. the one with the better things(their things are better therefor/because they won!) put it in place over the other. it then incorporated the things of the conquered to get even better, until it met another who is more advanced, then the same happened to it. there is no speculating this.

    there were already roads with street lamps and water pipes etc. in the world that time already. when were people here going to decide to catch up if they had not done that already then.

    if you leave a normal human hunter gatherer society alone completely, how long will it take for it to invent "running water, electricity, roads etc"? 366 years or thousands of years.?
    Not in isolation. With trade etc. There was already trade in the Cape.

    And what would you call the belief that a race of people NEEDED to be colonised before they would move out of mud huts? Who without someone ruling over them, would not trade with and learn from the other peoples they meet like every other nation on earth did at one stage or another?

    As I said, I don't really care if they would have been on the same level as we are now if Africa hadn't been colonised. But I can't fathom how someone would say: "You should thank us for subjugating your people, because without our subjugation it would have been impossible for you to get (by trade, etc) any of these things humanity developed over the last 200 years." and think that it won't be taken as an insult.

    It is a silly debate though. That is not how the world works or worked. The strong took from the weak. It happened everywhere and it is naive to think that in the absence of the white man it didn't and wouldn't have happened in Africa.
    Last edited by Barbarian, Conan; 14-06-2018 at 01:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C4Cat View Post
    This whole argument is stupid because there is no 'truth' or 'fact' when it comes down to issues of definition.
    The 'truth' depends on how you define colonialism - if you define it (as I do) as the oppressive exploitation of indigenous people and their resources, then there are no positives. If you define it, as Zille presumably does, as simply the migration of Europeans into Africa (which just happened to be exploitative) then it brought with it positives. Definitions are not true or false, they are simply the meanings we assign to words and often we disagree on them but there is no point arguing about it since there is no right or wrong definition - people simply have to come to some agreement on the definition to move the argument forward.

    In this case Zille made a statement that was divisive and provocative and she did it knowingly because she believes her definition is the one and only true definition. That's the problem and why I have an issue with it. She could have phrased it in a way that wasn't confrontational, like using just using the words Europeans instead of colonialism. Nobody can reasonably argue against the fact that there were positives from Europeans coming to Africa but the idea that there were positives from the oppression and exploitation of indigenous people (i.e. colonialism) is bound to cause hurt and resentment. Zille needs to come down of her high horse and for goodness sake, stop making American leaders her role models. When Obama was in power she (and the DA) copied him, with their slogans and branding and marketing, and now she copies Trump with her confrontational tweets which she mistakenly and misguidedly thinks is 'telling it like it is' rather than just more Trump like provocation and BS.
    So now it's a matter of how you define it? LOL. No it doesn't work that way. Facts are facts and the facts are that you have all of this infrastructure because it happened. You can define it however you like but it won't change that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian, Conan View Post
    To be honest, I don't care what anyone believes wrt Africans catching up to the first world ito technology. There is no way to prove any of it, it is all speculation. It is a fact that they were behind in 1652. There's no denying that.
    Although, to say that they would never have caught up to the point where they have running water, electricity, roads etc (even in some parts) is racist. It implies that they could never do what the rest of the world could do. Even if you believe it is true, you have to see how black people would be offended by it.
    It's not racist. You merely have to look at history to see the pattern. It takes thousands of years for people to develop. Just look at the period of development termed the so-called dark ages and before that. The only times people have developed quite rapidly is when they come in contact with another civilisation and usually for colonisation. Sure we can't say definitely they would still be living in mud huts but we know they would not have what they have today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBSA View Post
    They are a bunch of hypocrites.
    So is Zille as well.

    Hypocrites. Hypocrites everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_the_Brit View Post
    Yes I'm an Australian citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian, Conan View Post
    Not in isolation. With trade etc. There was already trade in the Cape.
    Not without colonialism. You keep ignoring that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian, Conan View Post
    And what would you call the belief that a race of people NEEDED to be colonised before they would move out of mud huts? Who without someone ruling over them, would not trade with and learn from the other peoples they meet like every other nation on earth did at one stage or another?
    Not racism. Nobody said it's because of race and colonisation is indeed something that happened to all races at some point with the same result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian, Conan View Post
    As I said, I don't really care if they would have been on the same level as we are now if Africa hadn't been colonised. But I can't fathom how someone would say: "You should thank us for subjugating your people, because without our subjugation it would have been impossible for you to get (by trade, etc) any of these things humanity developed over the last 200 years." and think that it won't be taken as an insult.
    Well you should care. As I said many times already how is it we can see the benefits it brought us yet our ancestors were the most affected by it. The only insults here are the ones people assign themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian, Conan View Post
    It is a silly debate though. That is not how the world works or worked. The strong took from the weak. It happened everywhere and it is naive to think that in the absence of the white man it didn't and wouldn't have happened in Africa.
    But it's exactly how the world works. It happened in Africa before the white man arrived but it only became wrong somehow when it was done by the white man. Judged by the standards of the white man no less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knyro View Post
    So is Zille as well.

    Hypocrites. Hypocrites everywhere.
    How is she a hypocrite?

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    Seems even the ANC in the Western Cape is a bit retarded

    https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...e-anc-20180614
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWizard View Post
    I must be retarded then

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToxicBunny View Post
    Seems even the ANC in the Western Cape is a bit retarded

    https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...e-anc-20180614
    You forgot the comic sans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knyro View Post
    So is Zille as well.

    Hypocrites. Hypocrites everywhere.
    Naive to think the majority South Africans would understand the point she was making, yes sure.... but a hypocrite?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBSA View Post
    Naive to think the majority South Africans would understand the point she was making, yes sure.... but a hypocrite?
    She's white, she can and will be accused of everything.

    But look at this thread, absolutely NOTHING to back up any of the accusations when pressed. It's the new South Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToxicBunny View Post
    Seems even the ANC in the Western Cape is a bit [very] retarded

    https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...e-anc-20180614
    Quote Originally Posted by JetsetWilly View Post
    You forgot the comic sans
    What makes you think that, is it that they're not just a 'bit' retarded?
    Last edited by TysonRoux; 13-06-2010 at 07:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBSA View Post
    Naive to think the majority South Africans would understand the point she was making, yes sure.... but a hypocrite?
    As I've pointed out many times before. She refuses to acknowledge any positives brought about by the Nazis, but expects others to acknowledge those brought about by colonialism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_the_Brit View Post
    Yes I'm an Australian citizen.

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