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Thread: Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by rietrot View Post
    Stats 101. Abstaining or not voting out of fear of being beaten by the police isn't a "no" vote.
    Abstaining actually means you don't care about the outcome.
    If you have a big enough sample size(a few million people will do fine) you can accurately determine "The will of the people" as forcing everyone to vote will likely follow the same trend.
    In that case it is, since the no voters did not go to vote because they challenge the legitimacy and legality of the vote.

  2. #17

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    I was in Barcelona last week. The atmosphere was energetic and lively, with students proudly roaming the streets with Catalonia flags. It felt similar to our post-1994 era.

    I did a tour of the Catalan region, stretching up to Andorra into southern France, and had a chat with some of the locals. Generally speaking, the older population are opposed to the split (pensions and such maybe involved here), whereas the youth prefer the split. The main reasons for the split are that Barcelona's exports and GDP contribute for 25% and 20% to Spain respectively; however, their funding from central government hovers between 10%-15% of total expenditure. A previous referendum put the "No" camp in the lead at 44%.

    Funny thing is, Spain has various autonomous regions: Catalunya, Basque Region and Galicia are probably the main ones. So Catalunya leaving would potentially start a domino effect with other regions following suit shortly thereafter, massively destabilising Spain.

    I was at Plaza del Sol in Madrid yesterday after the crackdown. Heavy police presence to separate Spanish and Catalan supporters. Although the tension was palpable, I was amazed at how peaceful the opposing sides were; the South African in me expected clashes, teargas and rubber bullets.

    All in all, its not a clear cut right vs wrong choice here; Catalunya politicians have disregarded constitutional rulings on separation procedure. But I do wish the Spanish all the best, irrespective if they are Catalans, Galicians or true Spanish (supposing there is such a group).

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by battletoad View Post
    All in all, its not a clear cut right vs wrong choice here; Catalunya politicians have disregarded constitutional rulings on separation procedure. But I do wish the Spanish all the best, irrespective if they are Catalans, Galicians or true Spanish (supposing there is such a group).
    Regarding this, I just read that 20 of the 34 rules of the electoral code were violated, which is an impressive failure by the Catalan government.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    Regarding this, I just read that 20 of the 34 rules of the electoral code were violated, which is an impressive failure by the Catalan government.
    Yep. The feeling i get on the ground from the people in Madrid is that, although they can respect self determination for Catalans, they're disappointed with the manner in which its panning out. Like they're being stabbed in the back, so to say.

    Difficult times both sides.

  5. #20

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    have just been watching vids of this, absolute madness. police breaking a womans hands on camera, wtf.

    so about 43% of people voted, of which 90% of them voted for independence.

    imagine the outrage if they then decided to join up with russia.

  6. #21

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    Is this not as simple as getting more than 50% of the population to vote in favor of leaving? Surely once that happens, nothing else matters?

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by access View Post
    have just been watching vids of this, absolute madness. police breaking a womans hands on camera, wtf.

    so about 43% of people voted, of which 90% of them voted for independence.

    imagine the outrage if they then decided to join up with russia.
    Actually 43% of the voters of 700 municipalities. There are another 200 municipalities who didnít vote at all and which are not counted here.

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1 Fan View Post
    Is this not as simple as getting more than 50% of the population to vote in favor of leaving? Surely once that happens, nothing else matters?
    1) the referendum was not legal
    2) the referendum did not allow every Catalan to vote (only 700 out of 900 municipalities could vote)
    3) only 90% of 43% of the voters of the 700 voted yes
    4) the no voters did not go to vote since the referendum was illegal

  9. #24
    Ulysses Everett McGill OrbitalDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1 Fan View Post
    Is this not as simple as getting more than 50% of the population to vote in favor of leaving? Surely once that happens, nothing else matters?
    Not really. It depends on the circumstances, legality, credibility/integrity of the electoral process etc.
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

  10. #25

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    I read that there are two options now:

    1) The national government takes over the province and appoints administrators instead of the local government (this is a provision of the constitution)

    2) dissolve the Catalan local government and call for early local elections.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    1) The national government takes over the province and appoints administrators instead of the local government (this is a provision of the constitution)
    No one expects the Spanish Acquisition.
    Quote Originally Posted by CorrieV2.0 View Post
    ... trust me I will feel threatened when you come.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja'd View Post
    No one expects the Spanish Acquisition.
    It has happened for corrupt and bankrupt municipalities and also one that went rogue and even though the mayor had to leave his position because of a court order but never did and had the municipal council in his pockets.

  13. #28

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    There were more yes votes than voters in 71 municipalities.

    The referendum was clearly manipulated...

  14. #29
    Super Grandmaster konfab's Avatar
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    Regardless of the legality of said referendum, Spain's actions against those people have given them the best possible reason to leave.

    Regardless of what you think of Molymeme, he has a good breakdown of the history of the problem.

  15. #30

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    Except that Spain would be ready to go to war rather than let them leave.

    Itís simply non negotiable for Spain and Catalan leaders have absolutely no support since the EU countries support Spain (partly to not wake up and give hope to their own internal separatist movements).

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