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Thread: Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

  1. #31
    Super Grandmaster konfab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1 Fan View Post
    Is this not as simple as getting more than 50% of the population to vote in favor of leaving? Surely once that happens, nothing else matters?
    It is more complex than that. Spain didn't even allow a non-binding or a mock referendum on the matter.
    On 14 October, Artur Mas proposed a "process of citizen participation" as an alternative to the original referendum.[22] The Spanish government announced that it would also block this effort by appealing to the Constitutional Court, which decided to hear the Spanish government's case on 4 November 2014, and provisionally suspended the vote. The Catalan Government, however, pushed forward with the "citizen participation" process, in defiance of the Constitutional Court,[23] and voting took place as planned on 9 November 2014.
    The Spanish government essentially didn't even want people to discuss it. That is a violation of freedom of speech. So much for constitutional rights lol.

  2. #32

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    Spain has too much to lose.

    Barcelona is like a monthly cheque for Spain.

  3. #33
    Super Grandmaster konfab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by access View Post
    have just been watching vids of this, absolute madness. police breaking a womans hands on camera, wtf.

    so about 43% of people voted, of which 90% of them voted for independence.

    imagine the outrage if they then decided to join up with russia.
    I think they would be even more outraged if Catalonia became part of the UK Gibraltar and Catalonia.. Spain would probably declare war on the UK if they did that

  4. #34
    Super Grandmaster konfab's Avatar
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    Name:  DLQ_vyaWsAAAlvx.jpg
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    No modern and democratic government would ever turn to oppression and tyranny. Those silly Americans and their 2nd amendment hey.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    Except that Spain would be ready to go to war rather than let them leave.

    It’s simply non negotiable for Spain and Catalan leaders have absolutely no support since the EU countries support Spain (partly to not wake up and give hope to their own internal separatist movements).
    That's wrong from Spain not the Catalans. Using violence to force people to stay in your club shouldn't be acceptable.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    90% of 2.26 million voters (while there are 5.3 millions) voted yes.

    712 of the 948 municipalities participated in the vote, the voters of the other 236 being excluded from voting.

    Doesn’t sound that democratic. The result is way under 50%...
    Eish brush up on your stats. The 90% is a clear indicator of what the total population will vote.

    Those that did not vote were most probably not voting fearing for violence from the Spanish police. You seem to forget that the Police tried to stop people from voting.
    Theres so many different worlds
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  7. #37
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    The bigger issue is economic. That region of Spain has gotten a lot of investment in terms of industrialisation over time. Thing is the whole country contributed sometimes to that investment. Now that the region is richer than the rest of Spain, it wants independence so that it can have all that money to itself.

    It would be like Gauteng saying we get a lot less of the tax than we give, so we want independence. Very different to say Limpopo calling for independence when they are net consumers of tax.

    Funny how the guys wanting independence are never the areas sucking up more tax than they give. They also tend to forget that during the time when they built up that industrial base money was often diverted to the area from the rest of the country to get it industrialised. Infrastructure costs a lot after all.

    Personally, I am with the Spanish government on this one. That being said I don't think the violence is warranted. That seemed excessive.
    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cius View Post
    The bigger issue is economic. That region of Spain has gotten a lot of investment in terms of industrialisation over time. Thing is the whole country contributed sometimes to that investment. Now that the region is richer than the rest of Spain, it wants independence so that it can have all that money to itself.

    It would be like Gauteng saying we get a lot less of the tax than we give, so we want independence. Very different to say Limpopo calling for independence when they are net consumers of tax.

    Funny how the guys wanting independence are never the areas sucking up more tax than they give. They also tend to forget that during the time when they built up that industrial base money was often diverted to the area from the rest of the country to get it industrialised. Infrastructure costs a lot after all.

    Personally, I am with the Spanish government on this one. That being said I don't think the violence is warranted. That seemed excessive.
    Gauteng as an example does not really work. Gauteng did not take anything from the rest of the country for its development.
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  9. #39
    Ulysses Everett McGill OrbitalDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrotappel View Post
    Gauteng as an example does not really work. Gauteng did not take anything from the rest of the country for its development.
    The workers?
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

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    Ulysses Everett McGill OrbitalDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by konfab View Post
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    No modern and democratic government would ever turn to oppression and tyranny. Those silly Americans and their 2nd amendment hey.
    Forget the comic sans?
    "Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

  11. #41
    Super Grandmaster konfab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrotappel View Post
    Gauteng as an example does not really work. Gauteng did not take anything from the rest of the country for its development.
    Gauteng also doesn't really have its own language or culture. It has its own flavor of South African culture but it isn't really that much different from the rest of SA.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrbitalDawn View Post
    The workers?
    The workers follow the work not the other way around. LOL. Those workers send the Gauteng monies back home.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja'd View Post
    Kick Barcelona out of La Liga
    I guess we'll finally know if Barcelona can do it in Stoke on a cold, windy, Tuesday night.
    Feeling down? You need a Friday thread.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBSA View Post
    Would you say the same if it was the Western Cape?
    Hell yes, then I can emigrate to the Western cape

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrotappel View Post
    Gauteng as an example does not really work. Gauteng did not take anything from the rest of the country for its development.
    How do you figure? Roads, water, electricity, rail lines, they all cost money, labour, and focus that could have been sent elsewhere. When the private sector wants to develop an industrial zone the government has to lay down a lot of infrastructure to enable that development and it costs billions. Those same billions could be invested elsewhere in other industrial areas but generally the private sector picks the spot for a good reason (access to skilled resources, transportation networks, etc). Thing is due to how development works you inevitably get a snowball effect where wealth congregates into specific areas. Its just he way economies develop. If each region that got lucky with that type of development decided to go independent it would lead to thousands of rich micro-states and massive regions of impoverished areas and it would not be fair. It would balloon inequality in the world. The poorer regions provide farm lands, water, etc for those industrial parts. They also often contribute the labour. Think of Mpumalanga, they carry a massive health cost due to poor air quality from the power stations that power most of SA. Yet MP is a fairly poor province. Is it fair to leave them high and dry when they have contributed as best they could but for whatever historical reasons the industrial centre of SA was developed in Gauteng and not there?

    Catalan is similar. Geographically it is in the north east of Spain, so closer to the rest of Europe. Hence goods manufactured there are cheaper to export to say France or Germany than goods produced in central or southern Spain due to distance. Hence the private public partnership developed the industry in their region at the expense of development in other parts of Spain. Now they want to up and leave??? I don't think that is fair.
    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

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