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Thread: You need city permission before using your flat as an Airbnb in Cape Town

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick333 View Post
    I'm not sure why you're repeating this. Vacations are the biggest industry in Hawaii. And working long hours is not the same as working hard. Flipping burgers is not hard. Being a security guard is not hard. There are many people who can do these things with minimal training which is why they pay so badly. We don't pay for air because it's readily available. We don't pay much for rice because it's readily available. Why should we pay more than we have to for "skills" that are readily available? When you pay more than you should for readily available skills, there is less incentive for the people you pay to acquire more sought after skills. And, when people get paid enough to live comfortably for doing easy shyt what happens to those people who are willing to do easy stuff for long hours in order to be able to eat?
    Hawaii's tourism is actually around 20% of their GDP but anyway to address your supply and demand argument you fail to recognise that short term rentals artificially reduce supply to the traditional rental market which forces a general increase in price across the market which is why in cities where demand for rental properties is high the pressure can create astronomical increases. For most people it doesn't matter your income as you will be put under pressure creating a cascading affect down the the price points dumping the lowest income earners to the curb. A good example is San Francisco - imagine paying $2000 for an apartment or $6500 for a larger home and 6 month's later your landlord demands $3500 or $10,000 respectively - that would seriously affect any income earner's pocket.

  2. #62

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    [QUOTE=Hamish McPanji;20476351]That's funny. I think the US has some of the highest levels of poverty , health and inequality issues amongst the worlds developed nations. They also have the least amount of regulation. Coincidence? I think not [QUOTE]

    Maybe, but probably the most social mobility. Europe has richer "poor" people. The thing about heavy regulation is that it keeps everyone where they are.

    Unless you want degree holders serving you Pina coladas, you would have to understand that you can't actually have everyone at the same level ...the nature of the world depends on it. And people in a poverty trap will rarely emerge without some sort of assistance
    Yet, regulation of zoning would go a long way towards levelling things for the lower to middle incomes doesn't it? It makes life better for the smallest group (the poor), but put's a cap on how much better things can get for the working and middle-classes while making the the revenue from tourism the preserve of the rich. The truth of the matter is that focusing on endemically poor minorities within minorities, you ignore that the majority of poor people don't stay poor in the US. So, ja a minority of homeless people are truly fukt in Hawaii and most of those are native Hawaiian, but you're failing to acknowledge that most poor people overcome poverty there.

    You also fail to acknowledge that the measure of poverty in the developed world is not only people living on the streets and/or eating garbage, it's also a lot of people who earn less than an arbitrary figure a day working ****ty jobs until they find something better and stop being poor.

    So sure, the "poor" in Europe are materially better off than the "poor" in America, but they are also more likely to stay "poor". This is the problem with grouping people by income rather than looking at individuals.
    Quote Originally Posted by purpleheart View Post
    Nick333 thinks everything is about him. He has no wife or kids but he still thinks he is a expert and clearly knows best.

  3. #63

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    [QUOTE=Nick333;20476647][QUOTE=Hamish McPanji;20476351]That's funny. I think the US has some of the highest levels of poverty , health and inequality issues amongst the worlds developed nations. They also have the least amount of regulation. Coincidence? I think not

    Maybe, but probably the most social mobility. Europe has richer "poor" people. The thing about heavy regulation is that it keeps everyone where they are.



    Yet, regulation of zoning would go a long way towards levelling things for the lower to middle incomes doesn't it? It makes life better for the smallest group (the poor), but put's a cap on how much better things can get for the working and middle-classes while making the the revenue from tourism the preserve of the rich. The truth of the matter is that focusing on endemically poor minorities within minorities, you ignore that the majority of poor people don't stay poor in the US. So, ja a minority of homeless people are truly fukt in Hawaii and most of those are native Hawaiian, but you're failing to acknowledge that most poor people overcome poverty there.

    You also fail to acknowledge that the measure of poverty in the developed world is not only people living on the streets and/or eating garbage, it's also a lot of people who earn less than an arbitrary figure a day working ****ty jobs until they find something better and stop being poor.

    So sure, the "poor" in Europe are materially better off than the "poor" in America, but they are also more likely to stay "poor". This is the problem with grouping people by income rather than looking at individuals.
    No, it makes things easier for the middle class also. And often prevents them dropping into the lower class. Whilst we all would love to live near our workplaces, it is often too expensive to do so.

    If I now have to move further away just because of seasonal holidaymakers are encroaching on an area which is largely occupied by the middle or lower classes...not only does it take away disposable income from them (higher rent), but it also impacts the productivity of those workers.
    “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    - Benjamin Franklin

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by quovadis View Post
    Hawaii's tourism is actually around 20% of their GDP
    I said largest industry, not only industry, but anyway...

    but anyway to address your supply and demand argument you fail to recognise that short term rentals artificially reduce supply to the traditional rental market which forces a general increase in price across the market which is why in cities where demand for rental properties is high the pressure can create astronomical increases. For most people it doesn't matter your income as you will be put under pressure creating a cascading affect down the the price points dumping the lowest income earners to the curb. A good example is San Francisco - imagine paying $2000 for an apartment or $6500 for a larger home and 6 month's later your landlord demands $3500 or $10,000 respectively - that would seriously affect any income earner's pocket.
    That's a good theory, but that's all it is as far as I can see. Also, you just reiterating what has been said here already. As I've said already, it's not the end of the world because the market for short term rentals will have a saturation point and in most cases it will just create more demand for cheaper housing elsewhere. We don't all deserve a sea view.
    Quote Originally Posted by purpleheart View Post
    Nick333 thinks everything is about him. He has no wife or kids but he still thinks he is a expert and clearly knows best.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja'd View Post
    Nope, they just want more money from you.
    But a block of flats being rented out is VERY different from a single owner renting out their property.

    So I don’t see the problem. Makes perfect sense for CocT to step in if people are basically self-zoning areas.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick333 View Post
    I said largest industry, not only industry, but anyway...

    That's a good theory, but that's all it is as far as I can see. Also, you just reiterating what has been said here already. As I've said already, it's not the end of the world because the market for short term rentals will have a saturation point and in most cases it will just create more demand for cheaper housing elsewhere. We don't all deserve a sea view.
    You're assuming that there'll be cheaper housing available or motivation for developers to build cheaper housing elsewhere when other segments are more profitable - in most cases it's a complete loss of affordable housing.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by quovadis View Post
    I would agree but he somehow thinks that the majority of hard working, high income earners are unaffected and it's only the fast food workers and security guards who are affected. Rent control in first world countries has been around since the 70s and short term renting wasn't even a thing.
    That's kind of my entire point. Property should be an investment for the owner not affordable housing for tenants. What do you think rent control did to property values. What, in other words, did it do to peoples long term investments? And, how is it different to telling property owners who they can allow to stay in their property , for how long and at what price?
    Quote Originally Posted by purpleheart View Post
    Nick333 thinks everything is about him. He has no wife or kids but he still thinks he is a expert and clearly knows best.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by quovadis View Post
    You're assuming that there'll be cheaper housing available or motivation for developers to build cheaper housing elsewhere when other segments are more profitable - in most cases it's a complete loss of affordable housing.
    Of course they will. There isn't an infinite market for upmarket housing - obviously. If there is a demand for affordable housing (which there always is) there will be a supply.
    Quote Originally Posted by purpleheart View Post
    Nick333 thinks everything is about him. He has no wife or kids but he still thinks he is a expert and clearly knows best.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxibox View Post
    There should definitely be housing in and around the centre, and it should be a mix of higher priced and low cost housing. Any developer building more expensive property should be required by law to build a certain number of low cost housing.
    Why should there be?


    They definitely need to bring it under control. Because it is consuming property that should rightly be used for housing.
    Why should it be?
    Quote Originally Posted by purpleheart View Post
    Nick333 thinks everything is about him. He has no wife or kids but he still thinks he is a expert and clearly knows best.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick333 View Post
    Of course they will. There isn't an infinite market for upmarket housing - obviously. If there is a demand for affordable housing (which there always is) there will be a supply.
    Demand doesn't guarantee adequate supply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick333 View Post
    That's kind of my entire point. Property should be an investment for the owner not affordable housing for tenants. What do you think rent control did to property values. What, in other words, did it do to peoples long term investments? And, how is it different to telling property owners who they can allow to stay in their property , for how long and at what price?
    Rent control is a result of many economic, social and moral factors which has more to do with the abuse of the market than free market principles. For instance with key workers - you can't expect to have policeman patrolling a neighbourhood when it's not economical or practical to do so earning a policeman's salary and living in the next city. Another example would be a landlord inflating prices regularly to a level which is affordable should the cost of moving to alternative accommodation or inconvenience cost be included (ie. you can stay and pay a little more or move to the same priced apartment and have the added cost of finding new accommodation, moving, taking time off work etc) which places the renter in the same or worse position.

    My final 2c - Residential property and business property are two different things which is why regulation is needed and zoning should be enforced. I don't thing anyone is arguing that you shouldn't be able to rent your property for the price you think the market will pay however if the person you are renting to is not taking up "residence" in a residential area then that activity should be considered commercial and regulated as such.

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