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Thread: Judge finds Ahmed Timol was pushed to death, did not commit suicide

  1. #1
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    Default Judge finds Ahmed Timol was pushed to death, did not commit suicide

    In 1972, Timolís death was ruled a suicide by magistrate JL de Villiers.

    Anti-apartheid activist Ahmed Timol did not commit suicide, but was tortured and murdered by members of the security police who either pushed him out of a 10th floor window or from the roof of John Vorster Square, the High Court in Pretoria has found.

    Judge Billy Motlhe yesterday set aside the findings of a 1972 inquest that found that the 29-year-old teacher, who was a South African Communist Party member who received military training in Moscow with President Thabo Mbeki, had committed suicide.

    He found that the now deceased security policemen, Captains Hans Gloy and Faan van Niekerk, had not only brutally tortured him, but also murdered him with intent in the form of dolus eventualis.

    He found that both of them, and especially Van Niekerk, had a history of brutality and complaints of torture against them, and knew that death could result from their brutal interrogation methods, but nevertheless continued to torture Timol to get information out of him.

    He found that Joao (Jan) Rodrigues, the former security police pay clerk who told the court he had seen Timol jump up and dive out of the window without saying a word, had been brought in at a later stage by the security police to cover up Timolís murder and that he had repeatedly perjured himself.

    Judge Motlhe found that Rodrigues was an accessory after the fact to the murder and recommended that he be investigated for murder and perjury.

    He said the reopened inquest, which was the first of its kind in South Africa, also highlighted the deaths of other political detainees who died in police custody and whose families were still searching for the truth.
    More at: https://citizen.co.za/news/south-afr...ommit-suicide/
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  2. #2
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    Those Apartheid police were bad... lots of people were killed and lots varnished by the hands of the police. .... dark days

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMamba View Post
    Those Apartheid police were bad... lots of people were killed and lots varnished by the hands of the police. .... dark days

    Are you serious? Things were better under the old regime, just look at GDP growth in dollar terms for proof.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerisgood View Post
    Godammit if I meet you I'll eat your eyes out for dinner.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by saturnz View Post
    Are you serious? Things were better under the old regime, just look at GDP growth in dollar terms for proof.
    I am of a nation that would not allow that fear of death, of torture, of imprisonment, of exile or persecution should result in the perpetuation of injustice.

  5. #5

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    My only question is, How does this help the country now? How is finding that 40 years ago mr. xyz from the apartheid state killed mr. abc doing anything to solve the problems in this country? It does sod all. Yes apartheid was terrible in some respects. In other ways it wasn't that bad. The same thing with the Nazi dudes, killed a couple million people, but they did institute a massive public works program that led to the autobahn etc. So not 100% bad then.

    The biggest issue in SA is that everyone is so focused on what happened 40-80 years ago that they have taken their eyes off the present and the future.
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  6. #6
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    I'm not so sure.

    How could Timol's murder possibly help the Security Police or the apartheid state? If they had intended to get rid of Timol they would almost certainly have done so in a way that didn't attract the world's attention, not by pushing him out onto a pavement in full view of the public in SA's biggest city.

    South Africa was under intense scrutiny at the time, by the local and international media and dozens of anti-apartheid groups and governments. A very public death at the local police headquarters was the last thing the regime needed or wanted as that only played into the hands of those pushing for isolation and sanctions.

    I think that the original finding is far more likely - that Timol snapped under torture and lunged through the window to end it.

    I also suspect the pay clerk Rodrigues was not present at the torture-interrogation session and was roped in afterwards, and thus lied in the original inquest.

    I'm not sure how this gives closure to the Timol family.

    (I say this as an opponent of the apartheid state. I have been arrested and questioned by the Security Police, and been detained without trial in solitary confinement at John Vorster Square. I know the cells there.)
    Last edited by Arthur; 13-10-2017 at 05:21 AM.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by friedpiggy View Post
    The biggest issue in SA is that everyone is so focused on what happened 40-80 years ago that they have taken their eyes off the present and the future.
    It is the only way to hide their incompetence, corruptness, stupidity, disfunctionality, greediness, irrationality, inferiority and what else. And the frightening thing is, most of them don't even realise they are doing it (Dunning-Kruger). Africa @ work.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by friedpiggy View Post
    The biggest issue in SA is that everyone is so focused on what happened 40-80 years ago that they have taken their eyes off the present and the future.
    maybe we should all follow your example to a brighter and better future

    maybe you should tell all those who were forcibly removed from District Six that they should rather focus on the present and future and forget about what happened 40 years ago

    or how about we don't stress about the current and present, because in 40 years time the next generation can just forget about what happened today, so it doesn't really matter
    Last edited by saturnz; 13-10-2017 at 05:43 AM.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMamba View Post
    Those Apartheid police were bad... lots of people were killed and lots varnished by the hands of the police. .... dark days
    Lots were bombed as well, or shoujldn't we bring up the truth here?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by friedpiggy View Post
    My only question is, How does this help the country now? How is finding that 40 years ago mr. xyz from the apartheid state killed mr. abc doing anything to solve the problems in this country? It does sod all. Yes apartheid was terrible in some respects. In other ways it wasn't that bad. The same thing with the Nazi dudes, killed a couple million people, but they did institute a massive public works program that led to the autobahn etc. So not 100% bad then.

    The biggest issue in SA is that everyone is so focused on what happened 40-80 years ago that they have taken their eyes off the present and the future.
    It doesn't, just some attention seekers, crybabies

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    I'm not so sure.

    How could Timol's murder possibly help the Security Police or the apartheid state? If they had intended to get rid of Timol they would almost certainly have done so in a way that didn't attract the world's attention, not by pushing him out onto a pavement in full view of the public in SA's biggest city.

    South Africa was under intense scrutiny at the time, by the local and international media and dozens of anti-apartheid groups and governments. A very public death at the local police headquarters was the last thing the regime needed or wanted as that only played into the hands of those pushing for isolation and sanctions.

    I think that the original finding is far more likely - that Timol snapped under torture and lunged through the window to end it.

    I also suspect the pay clerk Rodrigues was not present at the torture-interrogation session and was roped in afterwards, and thus lied in the original inquest.

    I'm not sure how this gives closure to the Timol family.

    (I say this as an opponent of the apartheid state. I have been arrested and questioned by the Security Police, and been detained without trial in solitary confinement at John Vorster Square. I know the cells there.)
    As replied to piggie

    And what about all those people who were injured and killed in the bombs by the so called "freedom fighters"

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMamba View Post
    Those Apartheid police were bad... lots of people were killed and lots varnished by the hands of the police. .... dark days
    Not sure about the "lots of people" but I can say this: They delivered on their mandate at the time and certainly weren't incompetent.

  12. #12

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    This guy's family has been fighting for the truth for decades. Now they can finally get closure. That its news today is because it was quite a big thing back then to many people.

    I've no idea why other matters (nazis, corruption etc.) are being strung along into this thread. Could it be that closure's only available to a select few? If you've nothing to say about this specific incident, rather shut up or go make another thread to bitch in.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by battletoad View Post
    This guy's family has been fighting for the truth for decades. Now they can finally get closure. That its news today is because it was quite a big thing back then to many people.

    I've no idea why other matters (nazis, corruption etc.) are being strung along into this thread. Could it be that closure's only available to a select few? If you've nothing to say about this specific incident, rather shut up or go make another thread to bitch in.
    So they'll only get closure once they get the verdict that they want?

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppiekoffie View Post
    Lots were bombed as well, or shoujldn't we bring up the truth here?
    I agree with you, but remember "white lives don't matter". So fck all the families who lost children, family, parents etc when they drove over a landmine on their farm.

  15. #15
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    It would not be surprising if the police did it. They definitely had the attitude that they could do what they wanted and get away with anything. However even if he committed suicide due to his mental state as a result of torture the police should still have been found culpable. And they continued torturing people showing that they believed they could get away with it and whitewash any resulting deaths. The South African state continued to whitewash these deaths well into the 80s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oppiekoffie View Post
    Lots were bombed as well, or shoujldn't we bring up the truth here?
    Of course there were bombings. By both sides in fact.

    And what about all those people who were injured and killed in the bombs by the so called "freedom fighters"
    Well they were actual freedom fighters. And there were many admissions of their wrongdoing.

    Quote Originally Posted by infscrtyrisk View Post
    Not sure about the "lots of people" but I can say this: They delivered on their mandate at the time and certainly weren't incompetent.
    They were scum, but efficient scum.

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