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Thread: A New War in the Middle East?

  1. #16
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    ... And so we're back to "Joodse geld" and the contemporary Middle East.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    The Boer republics were erased by an imperial power. The unitary state we today call "South Africa" is an imperialist creation.
    Partially. The British Union of South Africa was established after the Anglo Boer War, unifying South Africa initially under a vision of Rhodes', Milners' and other racial, imperial supremacists with a desire to subordinate Africa from Cape To Cairo, yet relatively shortly after that the atmosphere changed and partial self governance was instated. Afrikaner Nationalism then usurped Boer ideals and ESSA ideals, initially with good intentions and a natural state of affairs after historical entailment. I do not consider the 1961 Republic of South Africa as imperial either, despite catering for elements with imperial ambitions but rather a result of sequence of events that include Imperialism.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by saturnz View Post
    I don't think the existing borders have anything to do with science and reason, more to do with power and greed
    There are no borders that would satisfy everyone so it's a moot point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swa View Post
    It's ignorant to think that reason and science necessarily leads to progress.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techne View Post
    The railway to transport ore and other riches for those who tied in with Imperial Britain, those gold-bugs and troublemakers called Uitlanders by the citizenry of the Transvaal, the people who pushed the Transvaal to War to take control of the mines ? And the title of that document, 'Financing The Foe', the deeply religious Boers being the foe of course.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    Of course you can't abolish borders. And neither am I vaguely suggesting that. Borders are necessary and good.

    However, they do need to reflect the social reality on the ground.

    Much of Europe's struggle in the 18th and 19th C was to get the state borders to more-or-less correspond with the social realities, so France is mostly Frenchmen, Italy mostly Italians, Germany mostly Germans, etc. Of course there are exceptions, and niggly spots remain.

    Neither the Middle East nor Africa have gone through this process - their state borders are imperial impositions. Until they do, wars will be endemic.
    If you put everyone there in their own little enclaves they would all be at war with each other within a few years.

    And what about the Kurds for example? You have Christians, Muslims and pagan Kurds. Are they also going to each need their own country?

    The problem is not people being in the wrong borders. The problem is people being a-holes to people who are not like them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swa View Post
    It's ignorant to think that reason and science necessarily leads to progress.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyLion View Post
    There are no borders that would satisfy everyone so it's a moot point.

    but if they were reconsidered, new borders would satisfy more people than they currently do, just through the process of consensus building
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerisgood View Post
    Godammit if I meet you I'll eat your eyes out for dinner.

  7. #22
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    That's one possible view, of course. The wrinkle is that the establishment of the Trekker republics (there were at least five, excluding the Hollandse Kaap) can be seen as a species of local imperialism, or at least conquest. The interior was not entirely a terra nullius. The story still needs to be told of how the Trekkers earnestly tried to negotiate with the indigenes for land. However, within a few decades they were all overwhelmed by a global imperial power.

    A change of heart in the global imperial power resulted in greater local government for the local European descendants, with eventual unfettered hegemony in the erstwhile imperial lands. Interestingly, a number of ethnically-based Black states were established (Basotholand, Swaziland, Bechuanaland) which eventually also obtained their full independence.

    This also played out in the Middle East.
    Last edited by Arthur; 11-11-2017 at 10:33 AM.

  8. #23
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    Anyway, back to the Middle East. We're deflecting Lazy Lion's thread.

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    Anyway, back to the Middle East. We're deflecting Lazy Lion's thread.
    Back to the future

    https://www.geopolitica.ru/en/articl...and-modern-war

    Also linked in another similar thread .........

    The NEW Russian Army -- with "modernised" thinking
    Jedi Warrior - In Training
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