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Thread: South African Software Agencies

  1. #16
    Super Grandmaster crackersa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ^^vampire^^ View Post
    This is interesting as I have noticed a trend in first world countries where they only want senior devs precisely because they can do the work without any hand holding. The trade off here is that none of the graduates, juniors or mids are getting work anymore so they drop out of the workforce to pursue other opportunities. This is mostly prevalent with grads that can't get jobs as junior positions want 2+ years experience.

    There is also the problem of people thinking you study to be a dev and then get paid lots of money. Being a dev is one of the fastest paced occupations in my opinion with regards to the tech changing and you have to constantly be studying and trying things in the evenings just to keep up. Most people don't do this so they either can't cut it after graduating because they think the hard work is done or they become obsolete after a few years in the work force because their skills are basically old and unneeded.

    I've noticed a few companies in Aus have set up shop in SA. By this I mean they have opened a company in SA and hire devs instead of hiring devs in Aus. The cost for the Aus company is generally 50% or less of what they would be paying staff in Aus when they do it this way. Like someone else said, those in SA that can do the work are up to their eyeballs in work so outsourcing work to a company in SA or outsourcing to a company in Aus tends to be the same price. Companies will charge roughly $150 - $300 p/h in Aus and it would probably similar for outsourcing to an SA company with 20+ devs, so unless an overseas company is actually setting up their own dev team in SA it is not really worth it. Sure there will be smaller shops in SA that will charge less but I find no matter who you are unless people can meet in person something always gets lost in translation somewhere which winds up costing you money. This is even more prominent when outsourcing to China or India where people have learned it cost them more in the amount of redoing work because the Chinese/Indians can't understand the work requirements because of language barrier.
    Donít agree with you at all about first world countries. I know of many companies in the US that have intern programs as they recognize there is a shortage of local developers so they want to encourage more people to enter the field. And at my company, if the interns are any good, they are offered a permanent position. Mids and juniors are being hired all the time, especially since the US govt is reducing the number of HB1 visas being issued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crackersa View Post
    Donít agree with you at all about first world countries. I know of many companies in the US that have intern programs as they recognize there is a shortage of local developers so they want to encourage more people to enter the field. And at my company, if the interns are any good, they are offered a permanent position. Mids and juniors are being hired all the time, especially since the US govt is reducing the number of HB1 visas being issued.
    I have to agree. We also have an active graduate program and hire for attitude rather than skill. You can always up skill someone but getting them to buy into continuous learning, for instance, is much harder.

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    I actually think the not hiring juniors thing is mostly a South African thing. Most companies seem VERY reluctant to hire graduates or juniors.

    I'm like, where do you think seniors come from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    God no, avoid Entelect at all costs.
    Any specific reason?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    I actually think the not hiring juniors thing is mostly a South African thing. Most companies seem VERY reluctant to hire graduates or juniors.

    I'm like, where do you think seniors come from?
    I think it's difficult to show ROI on junior devs to non software companies as there is a lot of work involved in training them up. And most normally stay with a company max 2-3 years. Businesses have expectations that senior dev level ability for juniors at their cost. Or the mentality that three junior devs should be able to provide the same output as a single senior dev.

    Development should not be repetitive work, that should be automated or scripted. And the non repetitive work lies in that strange field of both creativity and logic that makes development such a rareish field. Sure , you could hire junior devs that are basic code monkeys , churning out boilerplate code but they won't learn and evolve if you just leave it at that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosmik View Post
    I think it's difficult to show ROI on junior devs to non software companies as there is a lot of work involved in training them up. And most normally stay with a company max 2-3 years. Businesses have expectations that senior dev level ability for juniors at their cost. Or the mentality that three junior devs should be able to provide the same output as a single senior dev.

    Development should not be repetitive work, that should be automated or scripted. And the non repetitive work lies in that strange field of both creativity and logic that makes development such a rareish field. Sure , you could hire junior devs that are basic code monkeys , churning out boilerplate code but they won't learn and evolve if you just leave it at that.
    Well, the ROI is that without hiring, a company is by definition dying. If you aren't growing, you are dying.

    Personally I believe juniors are undervalued. You get some really bright college graduates who are eager to learn.

    And if juniors leave as soon as they are good enough to get a better salary elsewhere, that is the company's fault, not the graduates. They should want to stick around because they are still growing and are earning decent salaries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    Well, the ROI is that without hiring, a company is by definition dying. If you aren't growing, you are dying.

    Personally I believe juniors are undervalued. You get some really bright college graduates who are eager to learn.

    And if juniors leave as soon as they are good enough to get a better salary elsewhere, that is the company's fault, not the graduates. They should want to stick around because they are still growing and are earning decent salaries.
    You're giving up the prime of your life to spend 8+ hours a day working for someone, so they better reward accordingly from the start.

    Otherwise get a dog if you want loyalty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarian, Conan View Post
    Any specific reason?
    I've seen how they run EasyEquites and just general interactions with them over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willo View Post
    I have to agree. We also have an active graduate program and hire for attitude rather than skill. You can always up skill someone but getting them to buy into continuous learning, for instance, is much harder.
    It’s actually cheaper to hire juniors and graduates. Spread them out in teams with more experienced developers. Out of 5 developers who joined us in the last 2 years only 1 was an experienced hire. The others where from uni and internally from non IT parts of the company. All doing pretty well afaik.
    Ubuntu is an African term for "I can't configure Debian"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    I actually think the not hiring juniors thing is mostly a South African thing. Most companies seem VERY reluctant to hire graduates or juniors.

    I'm like, where do you think seniors come from?
    Derivco hires juniors and interns regularly

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    Quote Originally Posted by crackersa View Post
    Derivco hires juniors and interns regularly
    They also have the structure to handle and train them.
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    our company Cyberpro Consulting specializes in providing teams to clients. We have around 180 consultants spanning the full SDLC. have a look at our website on www.cpconsulting.co.za and if you feel we can help give us a shout.

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