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Thread: Why we can't pay Eskom: Top ten defaulting councils share financial horror stories

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    It’s quite complex. There are Eskom switching stations which are basically Eskom metering points.

    The municipalities have a choice of tarifs they can be on (the most common will be Megaflex) which also varies according to the rating of the supply in kV (the higher the cheaper). Each substation can be on a different tariff as it is billed per substation.

    There are fixed monthly charges too.

    Then Municipalities have a NMD (Notified Maximum Demand) by virtue of which each substation is given a maximum consumption allowed by Eskom (let’s say 10MVA). If the substation at any point in time exceeds this consumption, penalties apply, the longer the exceed the more penalties (and they are harsh).

    Eskom meters and invoices the municipality at the end of the month.

    The issue is that municipalities cannot really pass on these costs to the customer so if you have old infrastructure and frequently exceed your NMD, you pay a fortune in penalties, never make profits and can never upgrade your infrastructure.

    A dumb system indeed.
    I think this is where the issue lies tbh.

    A set fee at max capacity required (not allowing any above that) and charge a monthly set amount. That way Eskom supplies what is needed and know what income to expect and plan accordingly. Municipalities collect, if they don't and don't switch of none payers the grid will reach capacity and that section will have loadshedding since they can only receive a set limit of power.

    To me this will make things much easier to manage by both parties and those municipalities not paying having loadshedding. Simple as that.
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    This will be possible with the next generation of grid controlled substations.

    Right now, 90% of the substations I see countrywide are manually controlled and you can’t isolate the consumption by small areas.

    So you’d have to send a team to manually cut off everything (when do you know when to reconnect since it’s cut off and doesn’t consume?) before sending another team to reconnect.

    NMD excesses can also happen to very good reasons (a big construction site in an area for a short time for example, ora festival).

    I don’t see Eskom (or even a modern first world utility) having the ability to micromanage at this extent, until smart grids are implemented (15/20 years).

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    Reason 1: Too many previously disadvantaged people connected to the grid at no costs, being supplied with unlimited free water, housing, etc. This was never sustainable in the long run. 10% of the population cannot finance 90% of all expenses. This even more so in a country where that 10% is getting smaller by the day - both black and white fleeing for greener pastures abroad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    It’s quite complex. There are Eskom switching stations which are basically Eskom metering points.

    The municipalities have a choice of tarifs they can be on (the most common will be Megaflex) which also varies according to the rating of the supply in kV (the higher the cheaper). Each substation can be on a different tariff as it is billed per substation.

    There are fixed monthly charges too.

    Then Municipalities have a NMD (Notified Maximum Demand) by virtue of which each substation is given a maximum consumption allowed by Eskom (let’s say 10MVA). If the substation at any point in time exceeds this consumption, penalties apply, the longer the exceed the more penalties (and they are harsh).

    Eskom meters and invoices the municipality at the end of the month.

    The issue is that municipalities cannot really pass on these costs to the customer so if you have old infrastructure and frequently exceed your NMD, you pay a fortune in penalties, never make profits and can never upgrade your infrastructure.

    A dumb system indeed.
    So then why the **** isn't there a peak / off peak rate?


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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    It’s quite complex. There are Eskom switching stations which are basically Eskom metering points.

    The municipalities have a choice of tarifs they can be on (the most common will be Megaflex) which also varies according to the rating of the supply in kV (the higher the cheaper). Each substation can be on a different tariff as it is billed per substation.

    There are fixed monthly charges too.

    Then Municipalities have a NMD (Notified Maximum Demand) by virtue of which each substation is given a maximum consumption allowed by Eskom (let’s say 10MVA). If the substation at any point in time exceeds this consumption, penalties apply, the longer the exceed the more penalties (and they are harsh).

    Eskom meters and invoices the municipality at the end of the month.

    The issue is that municipalities cannot really pass on these costs to the customer so if you have old infrastructure and frequently exceed your NMD, you pay a fortune in penalties, never make profits and can never upgrade your infrastructure.

    A dumb system indeed.
    Thanks, I'd totally forgotten about that.
    Hence why you have areas with artificial load-shedding - the bastards standing in the substation with the handle in their hands, cutting off loads to prevent the "penalty" because it was too much effort to plan for the growth in the area, and rather easier to just send the techs out with the van to apply some load shedding

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    Default Why we can't pay Eskom: Top ten defaulting councils share financial horror stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Budza View Post
    So then why the **** isn't there a peak / off peak rate?

    The Municipality pays peak/off peak winter/summer tariffs as part of the Megaflex. The NMD is a penalty that comes on top of that.

    Here’s an idea:

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    For example during peak times in high demand season, they can pay up to R3.45/kWh, money that no municipality can charge to any consumer.

    The pricing from Eskom makes no sense and then the prices of the Municipality cannot be back to back which makes it a huge schlepp to manage and determine, far above the capacities of even a medium sized town.
    Last edited by f2wohf; 14-06-2018 at 01:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.V View Post
    Reason 1: Too many previously disadvantaged people connected to the grid at no costs, being supplied with unlimited free water, housing, etc. This was never sustainable in the long run. 10% of the population cannot finance 90% of all expenses. This even more so in a country where that 10% is getting smaller by the day - both black and white fleeing for greener pastures abroad.
    People in the rural areas pay for their electricity, haven't seen piped water in ages and most build their own houses. My village alone has seen less than a month of running water in the past 7 years or more! Don't blame this on previously disadvantaged (I pay in the region of R2/kWh for electricity while someone in the nearest golfing estate was found with illegal connections!). It's failure to plan for the rapid urbanisation that's to blame.

    Btw, are you part of this 10%?
    Last edited by ForceFate; 14-06-2018 at 01:52 PM.
    Yeah whatever mate

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyLoop View Post
    Thanks, I'd totally forgotten about that.
    Hence why you have areas with artificial load-shedding - the bastards standing in the substation with the handle in their hands, cutting off loads to prevent the "penalty" because it was too much effort to plan for the growth in the area, and rather easier to just send the techs out with the van to apply some load shedding
    They actually do it by switching off the electric water heaters using the smart relays in each homes power distribution board, but many municipalities don't have the skills to manage that system.
    Last edited by TysonRoux; 13-06-2010 at 07:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    The Municipality pays peak/off peak winter/summer tariffs as part of the Megaflex. The NMD is a penalty that comes on top of that.

    Here’s an idea:

    For example during peak times in high demand season, they can pay up to R3.45/kWh, money that no municipality can charge to any consumer.

    The pricing from Eskom makes no sense and then the prices of the Municipality cannot be back to back which makes it a huge schlepp to manage and determine, far above the capacities of even a medium sized town.
    While they don't have to charge the full rate, if they incentivised people to move their usage to off-peak hours, they'd at least bleed a little less.

    I can imagine the root of the problem has and always will be Eskom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TysonRoux View Post
    They actually do it by switching off the electric water heaters using the smart relays in each homes power distribution board, but many municipalities don't have the skills to manage that system.
    That system is broken for the most part... and its also as old AF
    I am talking about areas I used to live in, in Joburg, where they had these ripple control things in place, but cut the power anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    And you know what?

    I grew up overseas in one of the top countries in the world and I love SA.

    Service is good, things are cheap, my lifestyle is much better, I save much more, crime is very overrated when you live in a good area (I walk my dogs at 9pm in the street).
    Oh comarade. Of course. Welcome back from exile.
    "For the ones who understand, no explanation is needed. For the ones who do not, no explanation is possible."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyLoop View Post
    I don't follow... honestly I don't. I don't have to leave to live here.
    I live here regardless.. My only complaints at this time are:

    * Telkom not paying attention to their LTE ballz-up that is ongoing
    * Having a dose of sinusitis because the weather changed so abruptly and caught me off guard

    And there's my brother, the absolute genius.

    Hated SA... with a passion. Full on born racist

    Emigrated out of SA, to NZ of all places

    Lived there long enough to qualify for naturalization

    Got his "kiwi citizenship" and burnt his SA passport and told the cANCer to shove it where the sun doesn't shine

    Things start going not so well in NZ... and boom... his employment sector is busy closing up shop and outsourcing to India and China
    because you know, that lot will produce 6000+ lines of ****ty code that barely works for USD0.85 a day

    Sits on his arse without employment

    Cries long tears about how he wishes he could move back to SA, but now he's facing the same as all other foreign nationals who want to come live here.. having to deal with DHA and their red tape.

    The irony... oh the irony....

    Where are all those "friends" of mine now that left SA long ago, to run away from "the cANCer gevaar"
    Where are they now indeed?
    Whingeing in their foreign country about how they miss life in SA despite the problems, because they have bigger ones now
    What Red Tape, he is an SA citizen by birth and while he may have lost that citizenship he never loses the right to Permanent Residence in SA...
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWizard View Post
    I must be retarded then

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyLoop View Post
    I don't follow... honestly I don't. I don't have to leave to live here.
    I live here regardless.. My only complaints at this time are:

    * Telkom not paying attention to their LTE ballz-up that is ongoing
    * Having a dose of sinusitis because the weather changed so abruptly and caught me off guard

    And there's my brother, the absolute genius.

    Hated SA... with a passion. Full on born racist

    Emigrated out of SA, to NZ of all places

    Lived there long enough to qualify for naturalization

    Got his "kiwi citizenship" and burnt his SA passport and told the cANCer to shove it where the sun doesn't shine

    Things start going not so well in NZ... and boom... his employment sector is busy closing up shop and outsourcing to India and China
    because you know, that lot will produce 6000+ lines of ****ty code that barely works for USD0.85 a day

    Sits on his arse without employment

    Cries long tears about how he wishes he could move back to SA, but now he's facing the same as all other foreign nationals who want to come live here.. having to deal with DHA and their red tape.

    The irony... oh the irony....

    Where are all those "friends" of mine now that left SA long ago, to run away from "the cANCer gevaar"
    Where are they now indeed?
    Whingeing in their foreign country about how they miss life in SA despite the problems, because they have bigger ones now
    And that is one of the reasons I don't want to migrate overseas. Just not worth it.

    My place, my country, my home is here.
    500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation has passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budza View Post
    While they don't have to charge the full rate, if they incentivised people to move their usage to off-peak hours, they'd at least bleed a little less.

    I can imagine the root of the problem has and always will be Eskom.
    They do, a lot of the municipalities defaulting already have (can’t remember the exact name when I need it) the thing that cuts off geysers during peak hours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by f2wohf View Post
    That’s technically the only one where I’d lose my life yes...

    And comparing crime by crime would take days (if the stats are even available on both sides).

    Point is, we all have stories, perception and for me Sandton is far from the far west. SA is dangerous but not really everywhere, Camps Bay, Zimbali, Stellenbosch and Sandton are hardly a nightmare to live in.

    I definitely wouldn’t live 1 day in a township.
    Really? Crime is so bad in and around Fourways that special groups have been set up to stop the near daily attacks. You live in a nice bubble. I have been victim of crime numerous times, and you call it overrated. Consider yourself lucky. Sounds like you are some highly paid bureaucrat. Let me guess, you have your money offshore, right? Are you paid in dollars?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick333 View Post
    The fact that your attitude makes you come off as a fairly frustrated, Volvo-driving, soccer-mom.
    Stoned people in houses shouldn't throw glasses

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