Why solar is such a f_ckup.

noxibox said:
Boreholes too won't offer much of a premium if they're common. Unlike solar they are also a threat to the resource they exploit if they do become common. Especially near the coast where excessive extraction of underground water can permanently destroy the source.


It's not an investment because it is an expense. Nebulous claims about higher house prices notwithstanding.


You're assuming solar installations don't become common in your area. You must also live somewhere that the city management doesn't use water and electricity as a source of income. Any place where they do they'll be shifting that income to rates, availability charges or something else, but we'll still pay it.
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OK so...
Boreholes arent overly common yet, neither is solar. The cost for putting them in hinders the numbers.

I disagree on your comments of Expense versus Investement. But that could just be with the way I see life and convenience.

If I have a choice between a house and theh only difference is green features. Sure as hell I will be willing to pay extra for that. There you go, free market principles.

As far as Municipality charges, I did say a few times about educating yourself on the options available and do some proper sums. Irrespective there will still be savings.
 
Geoff.D said:
This IS the sort of basic calculation that should be made by everyone, BEFORE getting lost in all the accounting nitpicking.

And then acknowledge the assumptions you base this all on.

1. The 900 units a month is the first one -- as I have already indicated that is a very high level NOT the norm for thousands of households in SA.
2. Compounding by 15% is an absolutely crazy high annual increase completely out of line with what is should be given the target of 3 - 6% inflation SARB is working on!
3. The 15 year period -- that is twice the average lifetime of a bond in SA if I have that right. The figure is closer to 7 years?

So each household has to choose all three of these parameters that best reflect their circumstances, and THEN do the basic calculation.
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No, most bonds are taken out over 20 or 30 years. Very few people manage to pay them back in 7 years.

If the solar solution is sized and purchased correctly, it should pay itself off in 7 to 10 years.
Recently I went back and got my actual usage stats for 2021 and 2022 years.
I have based this coming year on 18% , but the municipality will probably be higher and the year after at a minimum of 12% based on Eskom's court case win, but that will also be higher. After that I have based on 8% increases which is also probably conservative.

In fact the 18% increase actually justifies the expansion of the current battery bank.

www.dailymaverick.co.za

Nersa approves 18.65% Eskom tariff hike for 2023/24 and 12.74% for the following financial year

State-run power provider Eskom, which is in full meltdown with Stage 6 rolling blackouts, has a staggering R400-billion debt load.
www.dailymaverick.co.za www.dailymaverick.co.za

Year 1 is based on my origional napkin math and was probably understated

1675244263014.png

Also if you look at What Ekh has done with tarrifs that payback period is going to reduce

1675244173362.png
Looking at my actual usage figures going solar is a no brainer

1675244776290.png
 
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Well I contacted my installer today and asked for a quote on another inverter (5kW), some more panels and what the cost is to trade in the 15/13 battery for a 20/16. He says for them 16 hour days are the norm. I guess even the quote will take some time.
 
shadow_man said:
Agree 100% with what you're saying. Boreholes are however a lot harder to spot from aerial / drone footage the city takes yearly for planning (and can be used to spot solar) purposes. :ROFL:
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Hidden solar roof tile. Not sure on what they cost but it seems like its already available.

Invisible Solar

www.dyaqua.it www.dyaqua.it

Edit

€7 000/kWp

Still too expensive
 
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Major Boredom said:
No, most bonds are taken out over 20 or 30 years. Very few people manage to pay them back in 7 years.

If the solar solution is sized and purchased correctly, it should pay itself off in 7 to 10 years.
Recently I went back and got my actual usage stats for 2021 and 2022 years.
I have based this coming year on 18% , but the municipality will probably be higher and the year after at a minimum of 12% based on Eskom's court case win, but that will also be higher. After that I have based on 8% increases which is also probably conservative.

In fact the 18% increase actually justifies the expansion of the current battery bank.

www.dailymaverick.co.za

Nersa approves 18.65% Eskom tariff hike for 2023/24 and 12.74% for the following financial year

State-run power provider Eskom, which is in full meltdown with Stage 6 rolling blackouts, has a staggering R400-billion debt load.
www.dailymaverick.co.za www.dailymaverick.co.za

Year 1 is based on my origional napkin math and was probably understated

View attachment 1467583

Also if you look at What Ekh has done with tarrifs that payback period is going to reduce


Looking at my actual usage figures going solar is a no brainer
Click to expand...

Based on your figures I assume you spent a total of R243500+R18000 = R261500. You need to add another column with the opportunity cost of using that amount. At an interest rate of say 10% p.a., you also lost R26150 in the first year, R28765 in the second year, etc. It will take a while before your "Cost" column starts reducing much.

This only wont apply if you're using money from under your couch that is not generating a return.
 
Major Boredom said:
OK so...
Boreholes arent overly common yet, neither is solar. The cost for putting them in hinders the numbers.

I disagree on your comments of Expense versus Investement. But that could just be with the way I see life and convenience.

If I have a choice between a house and theh only difference is green features. Sure as hell I will be willing to pay extra for that. There you go, free market principles.

As far as Municipality charges, I did say a few times about educating yourself on the options available and do some proper sums. Irrespective there will still be savings.
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A few of my friends are doing it now.

i'm toying with it but i think currently my personal opinion is that if the country gets to the point where water goes the way of electricity and we have ongoing cuts its my trigger to find another country.
 
The problem with boreholes, especially the shallow ones. The infrastructure in most towns are so fscking old and dilapidated and over-utilized that your borehole starts pumping sewerage water.
 
Forum Reader said:
Based on your figures I assume you spent a total of R243500+R18000 = R261500. You need to add another column with the opportunity cost of using that amount. At an interest rate of say 10% p.a., you also lost R26150 in the first year, R28765 in the second year, etc. It will take a while before your "Cost" column starts reducing much.

This only wont apply if you're using money from under your couch that is not generating a return.
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Are you including the monthly electricity bill that needs to be paid every month if you don't have solar?

The monthly savings is literally just going to end up going to Eskom or the municipality if you are not generating your own electricity.
 
neoprema said:
A few of my friends are doing it now.

i'm toying with it but i think currently my personal opinion is that if the country gets to the point where water goes the way of electricity and we have ongoing cuts its my trigger to find another country.
Click to expand...

Might as well start making your plans so long.
 
AchmatK said:
Are you including the monthly electricity bill that needs to be paid every month if you don't have solar?

The monthly savings is literally just going to end up going to Eskom or the municipality if you are not generating your own electricity.
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That's in his savings columns. He allowed for that but not the interest he could have earned (and is now losing) if the money was invested.
 
Forum Reader said:
That's in his savings columns. He allowed for that but not the interest he could have earned (and is now losing) if the money was invested.
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Yes I would have lost on interest ( which you wont get 10% on a normal savings account ). That ammount ( +more ) is being directly paid by the savings in my lights account.
Ie I am getting a better return on investment than a savings account.

Also an interesting read and why you dont just count solar spend as an expense :
You will in all likelyhood get everything you spent on solar back when you sell due to a premium on the price compare to a non green house..

www.privateproperty.co.za

Growing demand for homes with green features

The recent drought, reintroduction of load shedding by Eskom and rapidly escalating costs of electricity and water have made energy- and resource-efficient homes increasingly appealing to home buyers.
www.privateproperty.co.za www.privateproperty.co.za

Now looking at Water ( and yes we have a large household ) but numbers I have seen is that you can work on 250l/person/day that makes a far more interesting investment with a far shorter payback.
I allready had the borehole, but if needed that would have been r90k, R10k on jojo plus another R10k on pumps and filters.
Factor in R2k/year in water testing and R3K/year in filter replacements

A pure "lifestyle" bonus of the water is that
1. I dont have the crap our area is currently having with the area just having been through a week with no water supply and I know of others that have been 20+ days without water.
2. 3 to 4 bar preasure out the taps which makes a really nice shower

Water savings py of about R50k, so paid off in 2 years

1675868108694.png
 
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wingnut771 said:
I was just looking for the cheapest. Never heard of raystech.
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Don't bother with Raystech. They have a very silly BMS. Some threads on powerforum.co.za about it
powerforum.co.za

Newbie Deye 5kw hybrid inverter

Hi everyone. I'm new to the backup systems Can anyone help me please my installer can't help me with this. I have 2 x 5kw Deye inverters in parallel and 2 x 5kwh Raystech lithium batteries that i use as a backupsystem. The installer sorted out the comms between the inverters and batteries but now...
powerforum.co.za powerforum.co.za
 
MeepMoop said:
Don't bother with Raystech. They have a very silly BMS. Some threads on powerforum.co.za about it
powerforum.co.za

Newbie Deye 5kw hybrid inverter

Hi everyone. I'm new to the backup systems Can anyone help me please my installer can't help me with this. I have 2 x 5kw Deye inverters in parallel and 2 x 5kwh Raystech lithium batteries that i use as a backupsystem. The installer sorted out the comms between the inverters and batteries but now...
powerforum.co.za powerforum.co.za
Click to expand...
Imo just about all BMSs that come in ready made packs are useless

they just about all have silly balance currents

So if you get a pack that has a bad binning of cells you are f***d and will test the warrantee
 
leon.davibe said:
Imo just about all BMSs that come in ready made packs are useless

they just about all have silly balance currents

So if you get a pack that has a bad binning of cells you are f***d and will test the warrantee
Click to expand...
That post had nothing to do with balancing.
 
wingnut771 said:
I don't know what you read, but the jist of the powerforum link provided was that his battery constantly cycles between 90 and 100% regardless of inverter setting.
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It was a multi message

So i think you are applying what i said to the wrong one

If i remember correctly the one message was he gets a shutdown on low voltage

Then powers up and all looks fine ie voltage not to low

balancing can play a role there if the same error message is used for low pack or. Low cell

The message that is pertinent to this ine is the bms lousy balance currents and inevitable warrantee claim that will follow on bad cell batching
 
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