Controversial question for the older guys - do you wish Apartheid had continued?

[Sarg3_ZN]

No, apartheid shouldn't have continued, but law and order should have.

 

[JuliusSeizure]

The NP were very afraid of the Communist threat (and rightly so as Ukraine shows us this minute).

The main reason the end of Apartheid took so long was not "die swart gevaar" it was "die rooi gavaar"

When the USSR toppled the NP ended apartheid.

They were getting pressure from across the planet to do so and the ANC that were basically the hot chick sitting on the bonnet of the fancy new car called the New South Africa were more a figurehead and terrorist organisation than anything else.

Did the fall of the Berlin Wall help end Apartheid?

The collapse of the Soviet Union helped topple Apartheid by removing the global threat of Communism, the country's last white president told CNBC.

www.cnbc.com

Horse manure.

The savages would have kept Apartheid running if they could. They were bankrupt and did not have any money due to among other things sanctions.

 

[Pak Fa Fui]

That is a statement based on the incorrect assumption that there where no white people(who would have been part of the "10%" who inevitably benefited) that opposed Apartheid.

Edit: damn 30% grammar. Let's hope it's correctly edited.

That is just a medal that some have given to themselves
Matters not in the grand scheme of things

 

[Herr der Verboten]

Heard someone saying the other day that life would be better under apartheid. He was an older white guy. While it's plain for everyone to see that the ANC is a complete disaster, we are still in a democracy and can vote them out - the reasons people don't are a whole other story for a different thread so let's just focus on the one question for now. This is in comparison to the 'good old days' when the majority of people weren't even allowed to vote in the first place.

I know we're in the toilet at the moment when it comes to many things in SA post-94, but surely going back to the days of legally removing millions of people's basic right to do things like move wherever they want is a bad thing?

Seems like people are using the ANC's uselessness as a way to say that apartheid was ok and justify some sort of nostalgia for pre-94 SA.

Not trying to start a war here, just opening up a discussion to hear people's (hopefully) civil opinions.

Cheers.

Another non solution busywork?

We only need one thing: The reboot of the system as it is as a whole.

Once, well one may hope, that people will realise that it is neither about The ANC or The DA. Nor about The White Man or The Black Man, that these ideologies need to go along with their "political parties" and systems.

 

[Big Rat]

The oppression.. No, obviously.
The stuff working, yes please.

If you messed up, you were disciplined, fired, or warnings or whatever, nowadays you do as you please and no one can do anyhting. we see that in the end products all over. and that is putting a dent in freedom.
Poeple measure they freedom vs working stuff, police that bliksemed the wrongdoer, and sometime the wrong people too. But here is the catch, as stated more and more people start to prefer that over what we have no. What use is your freedom if you cannot go to the restaurant, the beach, either prices or fear of criminals prevents you.
What use is you freedom is corriupt cops do the same as the apartheid police?
People in charge need to wake up, and fast.

 

[Hemi300c]

Horse manure.

The savages would have kept Apartheid running if they could. They were bankrupt and did not have any money due to among other things sanctions.

WTF

 

[AstroTurf]

Some of the ideas around BBEEE and AA are fine.

In the absence of a transition period, you need a mechanism to balance the scales, this was it but it's been abused because the loopholes weren't closed.

You can't just say ok cool you have equal rights now, and then expect people who were oppressed for 50 years to get smart overnight and magically catch up on their development. The only ones who were in a position to do this are those who got into power...

Yes this is also mostly true, I remember in Std 9 and 10 having these discussions with various school friends, our gullible minds believed that they would use the resources and knowledge they had available by giving masters of craft apprentices of the correct colour for a seamless transition to equality and transfer of skills and knowledge.

Anyway, what dumb childish ideas we teenagers of the great election had.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

No. It is immoral. Whether SA would have been better off if apartheid continued is irrelevant.

 

[GoofySmurf]

No

The reverse Apartheid currently in action is also wrong.

 

[Velskoen]

Horse manure.

The savages would have kept Apartheid running if they could. They were bankrupt and did not have any money due to among other things sanctions.

"savages"

 

[s0lar]

Horse manure.

The savages would have kept Apartheid running if they could. They were bankrupt and did not have any money due to among other things sanctions.

Joke is most of those in power at the time sent their money offshore. Nor were they in "need" by any means.

The common white man in the street voted Yes. I know its difficult to think white people wanted to end apartheid of their own accord.

Take your time and let that sink in.

 

[Phylax]

Heard someone saying the other day that life would be better under apartheid. He was an older white guy. While it's plain for everyone to see that the ANC is a complete disaster, we are still in a democracy and can vote them out - the reasons people don't are a whole other story for a different thread so let's just focus on the one question for now. This is in comparison to the 'good old days' when the majority of people weren't even allowed to vote in the first place.

I know we're in the toilet at the moment when it comes to many things in SA post-94, but surely going back to the days of legally removing millions of people's basic right to do things like move wherever they want is a bad thing?

Seems like people are using the ANC's uselessness as a way to say that apartheid was ok and justify some sort of nostalgia for pre-94 SA.

Not trying to start a war here, just opening up a discussion to hear people's (hopefully) civil opinions.

Cheers.

No, I'm glad Apartheid ended.

You do, however, have some stuff wrong about Apartheid, but like you said, this is not why you started the thread.

 

[Phylax]

Apartheid worked for 10% of the population so naturally those that benefited from it will miss it

10% of what population might this be?

AFAIK black people did not have citizenship in South Africa so I really don't know why it should've worked for them too?

Just like the citizens of South Africa, black people were responsible for their own progress and advancement in their respective Bantustans.

White people created the largest and most industrialized economy in Africa...what did black folk accomplish during this same time in their homelands....niks!

This despite the billions upon billions of Rands being poured into their economies year after year. The Apartheid government poured so much money into the Bantustans, South Africa almost went bankrupt!!!

Maybe pick up a history book or two about Apartheid before posting about it again?

 

[Moto Guzzi]

I think today thats not the right question to ask and I tell you why. Aparthed was before 1992 mainly as well as other ideologies playing out.
-All of them had something good to them.
-All of them had something bad to them.
-All of them had some cruel activities.
-All of them had old forms of Analog corruption, these corruption practices ruined some individuals, however they could hardly crash any monetary system.
-All of them tried to carved out a future and was not friendly to the LAZY and UNORGANISED and UNDISSIPLINED.

---Then came 1992....A 3rd child on the block, in the name of Money & Digital carving out a future for themselves over the Globe, it was more Digitally & Money driven while Political Ideologies wre abstractly pushed as Narratives to fucuss the minds of most away from the financial undergrounds.
---From that we entred the era of "Whats Next", what can possibly be next...From 9/11 throght the Pandemic to a Casual war going on with a sprout of power vepidemics over the globe due to lack of maintenance and undissiplined practices playing out, the holemark was a new form of Abstract Digitally Embedded Corruption unlike any other corruption ever known to man, from the Boardroom upwards(Dont ever look down here) Now this can and will crush monetary systems as it waste resources in exponential fashions hiding in plain sight feeding greed.

The correct question 2023 onwards.......Learn from the Titanic if you dare.
Theres only one correct question from now on:
Digitalism(PLaying out hiding in plain sight,Capitalism(Narrative now), Communism(Narrative now), Socialism(Narrative now), Other(Narrative now), and the TALK=Democracy(Narrative now)
---Which ideology will be the 1st to clean house, undrstand what they are doing and will actually have a financial/Resource future the foreseable future in, can you OutNarrative yourself-?

 

[Gadget Man]

I think that you have to distinguish between:

1. Apartheid rule and policies
2. A government that was good at service delivery and infrastructure delivery

To be fair, the government at the time was only set up to support and develop a small portion of the population. So, the task may not have been as difficult as it is today.

Apartheid was clearly wrong. We should not reflect back on this period and consider that this will ever be and answer.

What we need is a government that works for the people and not one that seeks to line their own pockets.

What we have seen in the last 29 years is a further decline in living standards, not only the middle and upper classes, but also the lower classes.

A majority of the public infrastructure we see today was build pre-1994. Very little is actually new ... and what has come, has cost us 2x or 3x what it should have cost. The old infrastructure has not been maintained and hence we see the decline.

The schools and clinics in rural areas have not been developed, or those that were developed are in a state of disrepair. In many respects the government pre-1994 did a better job at building and running clinics. That government should not have had separatist policies and distributed more funds to the impoverished population and development could have blossomed without the need for apartheid.

It's not to say that we were better of during apartheid (that's not how one should look at it) - we should rather say we were better of when the government worked.

That is what we should demand - the ANC has unfortunately had their chance and failed miserably. However, what is the alternative?

We all need to grow and prosper, and it is clear that this cannot be done with the current government / ruling party.

 

[Pak Fa Fui]

10% of what population might this be?

AFAIK black people did not have citizenship in South Africa so I really don't know why it should've worked for them too?

Just like the citizens of South Africa, black people were responsible for their own progress and advancement in their respective Bantustans.

White people created the largest and most industrialized economy in Africa...what did black folk accomplish during this same time in their homelands....niks!

This despite the billions upon billions of Rands being poured into their economies year after year. The Apartheid government poured so much money into the Bantustans, South Africa almost went bankrupt!!!

Maybe pick up a history book or two about Apartheid before posting about it again?

Were black people not citizens of South Africa, even Mandela

 

[Alexander the Straight]

Well, here's another perspective.
When Apartheid ended, I was 22. I'm Indian, so technically I was a "victim".


I had a great childhood, safety was a non issue. Only my dad worked, at an Indian owned company, and earned enough for a family of 5 to be reasonably comfortable.

We had everything we needed to live happily.

Not being able to vote, or go the whites beaches or eat with them etc really had no impact on my life at all. We honestly didn't give a shi*. They were not attacking us, robbing us or making life difficult in any visible way, at all.

As a young kid, I actually thought that they were quite weird, like if they came into contact with non whites they might contract some disease and die. I thought that's the reason they pushed everyone else away!

We had our own little match box houses, that we would always try to improve on and took great pride in . We had electricity, water, roads, general safety, sports fields, places of worship and of course tv and radio etc

We had our own schools, pretty damn good schools too. Teachers that were ultra dedicated in making sure that you grew up in the proper way and became useful one day.

Entrepreneurs were abound in our community, everything that anyone needed was available.

So, yes, I can honestly say that in my own experience , life under apartheid, as compared to life at present, was infinitely better, in almost every possible way.

 

[JuliusSeizure]

No, apartheid shouldn't have continued, but law and order should have.

They were an appalingly incompetant state with law enforcement. Plenty of murders are unresolved to this day and they labelled others such as Timol's "suicide" due to their incompetance.

 

[JuliusSeizure]

So, yes, I can honestly say that in my own experience , life under apartheid, as compared to life at present, was infinitely better, in almost every possible way.

Okay, even though every verifiable stat says Indian South African's are performing far better as a whole since the end of Apartheid than under those savages.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

Well, here's another perspective.
When Apartheid ended, I was 22. I'm Indian, so technically I was a "victim".


I had a great childhood, safety was a non issue. Only my dad worked, at an Indian owned company, and earned enough for a family of 5 to be reasonably comfortable.

We had everything we needed to live happily.

Not being able to vote, or go the whites beaches or eat with them etc really had no impact on my life at all. We honestly didn't give a shi*. They were not attacking us, robbing us or making life difficult in any visible way, at all.

As a young kid, I actually thought that they were quite weird, like if they came into contact with non whites they might contract some disease and die. I thought that's the reason they pushed everyone else away!

We had our own little match box houses, that we would always try to improve on and took great pride in . We had electricity, water, roads, general safety, sports fields, places of worship and of course tv and radio etc

We had our own schools, pretty damn good schools too. Teachers that were ultra dedicated in making sure that you grew up in the proper way and became useful one day.

Entrepreneurs were abound in our community, everything that anyone needed was available.

So, yes, I can honestly say that in my own experience , life under apartheid, as compared to life at present, was infinitely better, in almost every possible way.

That's not an Apartheid thing, it's a law and order thing. When law and order went to schit, so did the country. The difference is that under Apartheid, laws (right and wrong) were effectively enforced.

Things weren't better because of Apartheid, it was better because everything worked the way they were designed to.

Under democratic rule, if things worked the way they were designed to, life would be as good (or better) than it was, but without all the racist human rights BS...