Old South African flag is hate speech, SCA confirms as AfriForum consults its lawyers

[Fulcrum29]

Spoken like a lawyer. Lots of words but nothing concrete said.

Emotive language and speech lack certainty and clarity too.

 

[Dave]

Ex wives were having a go at me

Hello, Jacob...

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Emotive language and speech lack certainty and clarity too.

Explain?

 

[ForceFate]

Those streets were built with those names. Do you think the colonists arrived and renamed the sprawling metropolis of Tshwane to Pretoria?

Pretoria is still Pretoria

 

[rietrot]

Political BS judgment.

 

[rietrot]

I think this is more of arvee's chosen flag
View attachment 1512655

The three leg pretend nazi AWB flag is gay.

 

[rietrot]

Out of interest, what's your proposal regarding what that would look like/comprise?

There can be no compromise and should not be. Wtf is that even? Waving half a flag?

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Pretoria is still Pretoria

And the streets that the colonists found in the bustling metropolis when they got there and renamed? Do they still have the same names or were they re-renamed back to the original or other names?

 

[Gone Fishing]

And the streets that the colonists found in the bustling metropolis when they got there and renamed? Do they still have the same names or were they re-renamed back to the original or other names?

Gashing of teeth indeed

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Gashing of teeth indeed

Fact or fiction? Did the colonists arrive at a bustling metropolis where Pretoria is today?

 

[Next Thing]

Well I don't see the majority singing the old kill the Boer song either. Just a few EFF loonies.

Put it in perspective... Those loonies are the LEADERS of a popular growing bunch of loonies

 

[Grant]

The three leg pretend nazi AWB flag is gay.

Indeed, a bit like Eugene Terreblance & his penchant for black peen

 

[porchrat]

I did say they looked at its historical context. Context is important, though it seems only important when it champions your own cause; otherwise it is deliberately ignored. I see it all the time on this discussion board.

You're way off on the "Context is important, though it seems only important when it champions your own cause" accusation mate. I actually don't care much about the flag. This judgement doesn't personally impact me because I'll never fly that flag. I also think flying the flag is dumb. I just see hypocrisy in denying this, but allowing Shoot the Boer.

All I want is consistency. Either something being a part of our history excuses the racial connotations or it doesn't. It can't do so with Shoot the Boer and not here.

Shoot the Boer I was very surprised about because it's a direct call to action. In my eyes it's even worse than this flag. The singer is literally telling people to go shoot an ethnic group. Nobody flying this flag is directly telling anyone to do anything.

I readily acknowledge that some people might feel excluded and marginalised by the flag. I'm not 100% sure the government should be policing how we make each other feel. Just that if it takes action here, it should take action everywhere because I guarantee you Shoot the Boer makes plenty of South Africans feel marginalised and excluded... if not fearful for their lives, but I guess some supposedly equal citizens' feelings matter more than others. You might be OK with that. I'm not.

 

[SAguy]

50 years from now when I'm an old man I wonder if we'll consider the current flag the flag of state capture, corruption and how a government raped their country

 

[vigras rojara]

Put it in perspective... Those loonies are the LEADERS of a popular growing bunch of loonies

Lots of vocal oppressed and incapable right wing twits here too.

 

[Fulcrum29]

You're way off on the "Context is important, though it seems only important when it champions your own cause" accusation mate. I actually don't care much about the flag. This judgement doesn't personally impact me because I'll never fly that flag. I also think flying the flag is dumb. I just see hypocrisy in denying this, but allowing Shoot the Boer.

People need to understand how courts work. It is easy to lambaste the courts as being captured, but Judges can only rule on the merits. As I have said many times now, better arguments have to be made. "Shoot the Boer" in 2011 was constituted hate speech by the High Court, as reported here,

‘Shoot the boer’: It’s hate speech, says judge

ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema's singing of the words "shoot the boer" constituted hate speech, Judge Collin Lamont ruled on Monday.

mg.co.za

and therein is context. I don't have a direct link to the order, but the gist is therein. This ruling, however, was appealed where the matter was withdrawn as the parties opted to mediate and reach a settlement. It was then that the matter should have been carried through and ruled upon by the SCA, to establish precedent, but no, it was a settlement by choice. A complication, because in 2021 the Constitutional Court made an order in the Qwelane vs SAHRC and Another case which determined an area within a section as vague, as pointed out by Werksmans here,

"This is hate speech" – The Constitutional Court has spoken - Werksmans Attorneys

This is hate speech The Constitutional Court has handed down judgment in the case of Qwelane v South African Human [...]

www.werksmans.com

Thirdly, the Court agreed with Mr Qwelane that the use of the word “hurtful” in section 10(1) is vague, and unjustifiably infringes the right to freedom of expression (and the rule of law), and is therefore unconstitutional, to that limited extent – meaning the remainder of the provision is constitutionally compliant. Consequently, the Court severed the word “hurtful” from section 10(1) and suspended the order of invalidity for 24 months to allow Parliament to correct the constitutional defect. In the interim, the Court ordered that section 10(1) be read as follows:

“No person may publish, propagate or advocate words that are based on one or more of the prohibited grounds, against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be harmful or to incite harm.”

law evolve. An order by the High Court in 2011 is now incompatible. A past precedent by the SCA would have been welcomed, a case against all cases to come. See how important context is when arguments are being made.

All I want is consistency. Either something being a part of our history excuses the racial connotations or it doesn't. It can't do so with Shoot the Boer and not here.

Consistency resides with the arguments. The best anyone can do is to take these matters to the courts, and make an argument proper, contextually applied to our society as a whole where all witnesses and evidence must be relevant to the argument and the case on point.

Shoot the Boer I was very surprised about because it's a direct call to action. In my eyes it's even worse than this flag. The singer is literally telling people to go shoot an ethnic group. Nobody flying this flag is directly telling anyone to do anything.

GroundUp did a good article on that ruling,

Judge rules that “Kill the boer - Kill the farmer” is not hate speech

Court accepts that chants should not be taken literally

www.groundup.org.za

there is a thread on this. Even Willem Petzer admitted that Opperheimer did not succeed in his arguments (and cross-examination),

https://twitter.com/x/status/1494203084976930824

Mark Oppenheimer got his ass handed to him by Julius Malema in court. Six - love. It's an actual embarrassment.

the Judge listens. The same with Malema's expert witness, Elizabeth Gunner. People, including I, were astonished with how she answered, but nobody listened to what was asked. The one part I questioned was when Gunner was leaning into the Judge, which shouldn't have been acceptable, but it doesn't excuse the poor questioning. A claimant needs to be prepared.

Is Malema wrong here?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1494230989710794756

Another one of Oppenheimer's questions that made me cringe to the bone was the following: Oppenheimer: "What does it mean when you say 'Kiss' the Boer?" Malema, looking at Oppenheimer like he's a complete idiot: "It means going like this." (Blowing Oppenheimer a kiss).

This is handing the chalice to Malema, and Petzer is right in his remark.

I readily acknowledge that some people might feel excluded and marginalised by the flag. I'm not 100% sure the government should be policing how we make each other feel. Just that if it takes action here, it should take action everywhere because I guarantee you Shoot the Boer makes plenty of South Africans feel marginalised and excluded... if not fearful for their lives, but I guess some supposedly equal citizens' feelings matter more than others. You might be OK with that. I'm not.

Back to the case on topic. I quoted the issues pointed out by the panel, so I have to ask, where is the preparation, why the lacklustre arguments? Then I need to ask, what do they really want to achieve? You either want to win or you want to lose.

As I have said many times now, we live in a Constitutional Democracy, the courts will promote the public interest. Courts are headed by humans, all individuals with their own ideas and ideals, and it is therein they will advance democracy. Again, diversity within the courts is important. In the case this matter is appealed with success, it will be heard by the Constitional Court, and they better go there with proper arguments otherwise they won't have a reasonable chance to succeed.

There is a Spock quote,

"Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Kirk replied though,

“Or the one.”

ignore Kirk, but many do logically dictate as Spock said, and it is set up as such by elitists exploiting the social classes. Just have a quick glance at France at the moment. Our society is accelerating into a social democracy or rather our democracy is used to arrive at socialism, it is only that the more the power that be lose, the less gradual our advance, or as others argue, the more rapid the regress.

All perspective, each one has their own views. At this point I cannot stress my views any more than I already did, across numerous threads.

You want change, then tell everyone who still reside here to vote in a new and better national administration.

Whether you think I am OK with the circumstance and the situation some are in concerning the topic, well, that is your view, not mine.

 

[GrootVoet]

I expected this, in the New South Africa everything that happened before 1994 is automatically labeled as bad.

I can still remember as a schoolboy how patriotic it felt to sing The Stem and how it felt to be proud of our country.

I do not feel the same about my country today and I guess few citizens feel proud about what we've become as country.

Black people still feel left behind and white people feel discriminated against. So much for the rainbow nation.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Lots of vocal oppressed and incapable right wing twits here too.

Yet you have no cogent argument? Only ad hominem insults and assumptions.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

So here we have someone who supports a regime that decided that certain people only deserved to be in the working classes, wondering why the supported the working classes?

Meanwhile the regime you condone was far more communist and socialist than the corrupt old ANC has ever been?

Who said I condoned the apartheid regime? I wasn't fighting for apartheid in the SADF. I had blacks fighting communism alongside me.

The war in Angola was against Soviet imperialism and was in Angola because if it wasn't, the operational area would have been near Springbok and Upington.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Not even going to bother. I don't know how many times I've asked you the same thing. Even debated certain things. You keep doing the same. Not going to waste my time debating this again.

It's not me stating the facts. Take it up with the HRC.