Twelve killed in mass shooting in Johannesburg as manhunt under way

R13... said:
Hardly. Cleveland likely means rival illegal miners. Whatever it is, it'll be criminal gang related.
Those xenophobia mobs do not go around committing mass shootings.
Click to expand...
They have killed a few people already but I see... probably Zama Zama related.

Ironically there is probably some crossover
 
konfab said:
Couple of things:
1) The prisons are completely overcrowded, which creates the conditions for the gangs.
2) Vast majority of prisoners do not live lavishly. Eating pap and boiled eggs for 20 years is not exactly lavish.

But building mega prisons isn't enough. You need to change, bail, parole and sentencing laws such that:
- Life imprisonment should mean you die in prison of old age, not 25 years.
- Life imprisonment should be the default for murder, rape, armed robbery and kidnapping. These are crimes that cause genuine terror in the victims and likely traumatises them for life.
- Any prior criminal record upgrades sentencing for subsequent cases to life imprisonment. You get one chance.

You also need to vastly increase the amount of resources that go to policing, prosecutions and judiciary.

View attachment 1913994

Police, courts and prisons are completely underfunded if you look at the budget and the amount of crime we have.
Click to expand...
R2.4trillion? How much did the lotto bring in last year?
 
ISP cash cow said:
RIP

in the one article I read it says it is because of the illegal mining war turf in the area
Click to expand...
More than likely... We had 12 or so shot a few months back in my area... One faction of zamas took a stroll through the veld and attacked some other zamas in the early hours of the morning... Its no big deal these days... They are always at it.

Every so often cops and army have a raid and arrest a few and take away the pendukas but they are back at it a few days later.

A lot of my old hiking and biking routes are gone for good now because of these tossers..
 
wingnut771 said:
Our pesky Constitution will get in the way again.
Click to expand...

wingnut771 said:
We have to scrap the Constitution and start again first.
Click to expand...

There are many problems with the constitution, but it doesn't block anything relating to sentence length or imprisonment. All it says is that Parliament has to pass legislation to do it, and that you cannot kill or torture inmates.

edit: from one of the famous constitutional court cases.

  1. The need for a strong deterrent to violent crime is an end the validity of which is not open to question. The state is clearly entitled, indeed obliged, to take action to protect human life against violation by others. In all societies there are laws which regulate the behaviour of people and which authorise the imposition of civil or criminal sanctions on those who act unlawfully. This is necessary for the preservation and protection of society. Without law, society cannot exist. Without law, individuals in society have no rights. The level of violent crime in our country has reached alarming proportions. It poses a threat to the transition to democracy, and the creation of development opportunities for all, which are primary goals of the Constitution. The high level of violent crime is a matter of common knowledge and is amply borne out by the statistics provided by the Commissioner of Police in his amicus brief. The power of the State to impose sanctions on those who break the law cannot be doubted. It is of fundamental importance to the future of our country that respect for the law should be restored, and that dangerous criminals should be apprehended and dealt with firmly. Nothing in this judgment should be understood as detracting in any way from that proposition. But the question is not whether criminals should go free and be allowed to escape the consequences of their anti-social behaviour. Clearly they should not; and equally clearly those who engage in violent crime should be met with the full rigour of the law. The question is whether the death sentence for murder can legitimately be made part of that law. And this depends on whether it meets the criteria prescribed by section 33(1).
Click to expand...


  1. The President has rightly pointed out in his judgment that in considering the deterrent effect of the death sentence the evaluation is not to be conducted by contrasting the death penalty with no punishment at all but between the death sentence and "severe punishment of a long term of imprisonment which, in an appropriate case, could be a sentence of life imprisonment";18 I agree with this approach. With the abolition of the death penalty society needs the firm assurance that the unreformed recidivist murderer or rapist will not be released from prison, however long the sentence served by the prisoner may have been, if there is a reasonable possibility that the prisoner will repeat the crime. Society needs to be assured that in such cases the state will see to it that such a recidivist will remain in prison permanently.
  2. I appreciate the concern of not wishing to anticipate the issue as to whether life imprisonment, however executed and administered, is constitutional or not. At the same time I do not believe that the two issues can be kept in watertight separate juristic compartments. If the death penalty is to be abolished, as I believe it must, society is entitled to the assurance that the state will protect it from further harm from the convicted unreformed recidivist killer or rapist. If there is an individual right not to be put to death by the criminal justice system there is a correlative obligation on the state, through the criminal justice system, to protect society from once again being harmed by the unreformed recidivist killer or rapist. The right and the obligation are inseparably part of the same constitutional state compact.
Click to expand...

https://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZACC/1995/3.html

They said in the absence of death penalty, which they wanted, the state is mandated to put criminals in prison permanently to protect society.
 
Last edited:
konfab said:
There are many problems with the constitution, but it doesn't block anything relating to sentence length or imprisonment. All it says is that Parliament has to pass legislation to do it, and that you cannot kill or torture inmates.
Click to expand...
What does it say about chain gangs?
 
Herr der Verboten said:
Ebola, immigrants, nigerians, zamas - looking at recent drumming up of and in news it's probably Xeno/immigrant related…
Click to expand...
if your xenophobia inspires violence against Nigerians you're wasting your time shooting in any informal settlement ... take aim at the vinyl wrapped Lambo's and G-wagons instead ...
 
R13... said:
Hardly. Cleveland likely means rival illegal miners. Whatever it is, it'll be criminal gang related.
Those xenophobia mobs do not go around committing mass shootings.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't rule it out.

There are hostels in Cleveland and surrounds, and they have been sources of violence and xenophobia in the past.

Their shops looted, cars burnt, businesses closed, distressed South African traders in crime-ridden Jeppestown – among the hardest hit by the raging Gauteng xenophobic violence – are facing a bleak future, with about 95% of them being uninsured.

Speaking to The Citizen yesterday in the aftermath of the massive destruction, which also affected the nearby Jules Street businesses in Malvern, Mohsin Suliman, chairperson of the Jeppestown Traders’ Association, described his loss and that of Bangladeshi and Nigerian entrepreneurs as “a decimation”.

“Shops have been cleaned out and some destroyed,” said Suliman, whose association aims to revive the community policing forum in the troubled area east of Johannesburg.

Suliman said those behind the attacks came from the Denver and Jeppe hostels, about 2km away.

He said: “It all started with rumours we were constantly getting from people, saying hostel residents were mobilising to attack us. The looting began last Saturday when a fire broke out near the hostel, affecting a business, which was plundered.
Click to expand...
www.citizen.co.za

For Jeppestown, read 'ghost town' after violent attacks | The Citizen

Those behind the attacks came from the Denver and Jeppe hostels, about 2km away, said Mohsin Suliman, chair of the Jeppestown Traders’ Association.
www.citizen.co.za www.citizen.co.za


Those hostels are problematic and very hostile. My dad has worked in Benrose since the late 80s and has witnessed the political violence of the late 80s/early 90s and spates of xenophobic violence more recently that stems from the hostels. Notably, they looted foreign-owned cafes and spaza shops in Benrose and surrounding areas a couple of years ago. My dad has personally been approached by people from the hostels asking him if and how many foreigners are employed by his company. They had a ''community forum'' a couple of years ago during a spate of cable theft, service outages and store lootings, and the hostel indunas who were present warned businesses to not employ foreigners.
 
CUZ_458 said:
The ElSalvador prison documentaries makes me happy. Its proven that it works so i really dont know why this cant be incorporated in other high crime countries
Click to expand...

El Salvador has a population of 6 million.

Johannesburg has a population of ~5 million for comparison.

It is a lot ''easier'' to do what El Salvador done when you have a small population.
 
thestaggy said:
El Salvador has a population of 6 million.

Johannesburg has a population of ~5 million for comparison.

It is a lot ''easier'' to do what El Salvador done when you have a small population.
Click to expand...

All El Salvador did was change their President
 
Nerfherder said:
I'm putting my money on Xenophobia.... its getting scary.
Click to expand...

ISP cash cow said:
RIP

in the one article I read it says it is because of the illegal mining war turf in the area
Click to expand...

The fact that there are multiple legit sounding reasons for a massacre and we could probably come up with more reasons if we wanted to is bloody awful.

1781088138052.png
 
ShaunSA said:
All El Salvador did was change their President
Click to expand...

Doesn't change anything I said.

Much easier to wrangle a small population living in a small country (El Slavador is a tiny country as well). Gauteng is nearly the same size as El Salvador, with over twice the population.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X