Home Affairs minister defends digital ID rollout in South Africa

[Luis]

Home Affairs minister defends digital ID rollout in South Africa

Home Affairs Minister Dr Leon Schreiber has defended the rollout of digital IDs in South Africa, stating that the proposed system is designed to empower South Africans, not surveil them.

The department's draft amendments to South Africa's identity regulations for the rollout of digital IDs have been met with opposition online and by notable commentators in recent weeks.

 

[Bad Ballie]

The system is far too susceptible to abuse by a rogue state, and if nothing else South Africa is run by a rogue state.

 

[quovadis]

Imho banks and a few entities are already verifying identities through home affairs digitally using your ID number and biometrics as reference. I'm sure each of those enquiries are logged so this appears to be a similar thing whether they implement a digital ID or not - at least for those freaking about about privacy...

 

[Corelli]

When we wrote the original design, the aim was that although Home Affairs issues the digital ID, you control it, and over time the ability for companies to check via home affairs for a fee will be wiped out. As such the ownership goes to you, including eventually all your other documents. So if you goto a bank, and they want to confirm your details, you have to authorise them having access to it going forward, same for applying for loans etc. All that home affairs would really tell them is that you are the actual user, and not share your details etc with them.

Especially after we discovered how bad the leaks are where the credit bureaus are happily selling your sellings to every tom, dick and harry pretty much.

So the idea is to eliminate that where you would be either green or red when using another service.

 

[quovadis]

He warned that the draft could create a centralised state-controlled infrastructure that could see the government increase surveillance on South Africans and exclude certain people from services.

It's already centralized just physical, slow and inefficient. As for excluding certain people, pretty sure they don't need a digital ID to do that...

 

[quovadis]

When we wrote the original design, the aim was that although Home Affairs issues the digital ID, you control it, and over time the ability for companies to check via home affairs for a fee will be wiped out. As such the ownership goes to you, including eventually all your other documents. So if you goto a bank, and they want to confirm your details, you have to authorise them having access to it going forward, same for applying for loans etc. All that home affairs would really tell them is that you are the actual user, and not share your details etc with them.

Especially after we discovered how bad the leaks are where the credit bureaus are happily selling your sellings to every tom, dick and harry pretty much.

So the idea is to eliminate that where you would be either green or red when using another service.

Once they have access they can just store it - at least the information as it is at the time. In fairness the credit bureaus will still get passed this information anyway too.

 

[system32]

The minister also denied that the digital ID system would become compulsory at any point in the future, reiterating that it would be supplementary to the physical smart ID card.

Digital ID system were rejected in UK and US - they had good reasons to do so.
We need to do the same and reject.

The issue is that banks, grants, shops, etc, start making "digital ID system" a requirement to use their products making "digital ID system" de-facto compulsory.

Example:

81 year old mother is "technologically challenged" and has a bit of dementia.​

Daughter has POA on mothers Capitec account.​

Daughter has been doing all the banking for mother, paying rent, paying electricity, paying insurance, paying SABC, paying...​

Step 1. Capitec updates their online backing system to force App verification.​

A few months later...​

Step 2. Capitec then subsequently forced App based facial-id verification against home-affairs database.​

Daughter no longer able to do banking.​

Daughter moved Capitec account to another bank.​

I'm not sure how Capitec intends to bank all the people that don't have smartphones (eg gogo/oupa/ouma/etc)

 

[system32]

 

[Vanessa13]

I'm wondering what happens if your phone gets stolen or hacked with all that info on it... And let's face it - the system is definitely going to be hacked at some point.

 

[quovadis]

Digital ID system were rejected in UK and US - they had good reasons to do so.
We need to do the same and reject.

The issue is that banks, grants, shops, etc, start making "digital ID system" a requirement to use their products making "digital ID system" de-facto compulsory.

Example:

81 year old mother is "technologically challenged" and has a bit of dementia.​

Daughter has POA on mothers Capitec account.​

Daughter has been doing all the banking for mother, paying rent, paying electricity, paying insurance, paying SABC, paying...​

Step 1. Capitec updates their online backing system to force App verification.​

A few months later...​

Step 2. Capitec then subsequently forced App based facial-id verification against home-affairs database.​

Daughter no longer able to do banking.​

Daughter moved Capitec account to another bank.​

I'm not sure how Capitec intends to bank all the people that don't have smartphones (eg gogo/oupa/ouma/etc)

As per your scenario most banks either accept a general power of attorney or have a special power of attorney for such. I cannot speak for capitec but at least ABSA and Nedbank make provisions for providing access to a person with power of attorney using their own identity.

 

[Brian_G]

Over the top scare tactics, this govt. doesn't know its asss from its elbow and are just doing the bidding of their puppetmasters

 

[Gudnews]

What convenience will I be getting for this? People will be fine if there's a worthy upside.

 

[Tim_vb]

Digital ID system were rejected in UK and US - they had good reasons to do so.
We need to do the same and reject.

The issue is that banks, grants, shops, etc, start making "digital ID system" a requirement to use their products making "digital ID system" de-facto compulsory.

Example:

81 year old mother is "technologically challenged" and has a bit of dementia.​

Daughter has POA on mothers Capitec account.​

Daughter has been doing all the banking for mother, paying rent, paying electricity, paying insurance, paying SABC, paying...​

Step 1. Capitec updates their online backing system to force App verification.​

A few months later...​

Step 2. Capitec then subsequently forced App based facial-id verification against home-affairs database.​

Daughter no longer able to do banking.​

Daughter moved Capitec account to another bank.​

I'm not sure how Capitec intends to bank all the people that don't have smartphones (eg gogo/oupa/ouma/etc)

the cost of not having a properly implemented digital ID is rampant fraud, massive friction as well as exclusion from digital services - particularly in financial services. Already some institutions will not onboard you if you dont have your DHA profile up to date with a smartcard etc

It's all very fun and main character whinging about conspiracies on facebook but there are real costs of not keeping up with rest of the world and these costs are predominantly carried by the poorer segments of society

 

[Brian_G]

It's all very fun and main character whinging about conspiracies on facebook but there are real costs of not keeping up with rest of the world and these costs are predominantly carried by the poorer segments of society

These clowns can't even keep the lights on or stop sewage flowing in the street, that's if you still have streets...

 

[system32]

the cost of not having a properly implemented digital ID is rampant fraud, massive friction as well as exclusion from digital services - particularly in financial services. Already some institutions will not onboard you if you dont have your DHA profile up to date with a smartcard etc

Government Digital ID is not required to prevent fraud.

UK government's plan for a mandatory digital ID was effectively rejected and abandoned following massive public backlash.
Switzerland - rejected in March 2021 referendum.
Australia - rejected due to public pressure.
New Zealand, Canada, and the United States public have repeatedly pushed back against centralized national digital IDs.

UK, Switzerland, Austrlia, New Zeland, Canada, US, etc all have low levels of fraud and don't have digital ID.
How come they don't have fraud?

It's all very fun and main character whinging about conspiracies on facebook but there are real costs of not keeping up with rest of the world and these costs are predominantly carried by the poorer segments of society

Your definition of "rest of the world" == Communist China, Communist Vietnam which have Digital ID
My definition of "rest of the world" == Free UK, Switzerland, Austrlia, New Zeland, Canada, US which have rejected Digital ID.

 

[system32]

What convenience will I be getting for this? People will be fine if there's a worthy upside.

Convenient Suspension and Cancellation of Digital ID
The Director-General has broad powers to suspend digital identity credentials, to accredit "trusted entities" demand data sharing without independent oversight.

Convenient access to 7-Year Audit Logs of your use of your Digital ID
Used your credit card, which is linked to your Digital ID to buy subscription to PornHub...

Convenient Real-Time Tracking:
Forcing private banks, telecom companies, and state organs to sync with a single population register creates a permanent audit trail of your daily interactions.

Belong to Afriforum - Cancellation of Digital ID
Belong to OUTA - Suspension of Digital ID
Post conspiracy theory on MyBB - Suspension of Digital ID
...

No thank you.

 

[quovadis]

Convenient Suspension and Cancellation of Digital ID
The Director-General has broad powers to suspend digital identity credentials, to accredit "trusted entities" demand data sharing without independent oversight.

The same broad powers exist with ID cards. There is case law governing this - the same would apply whether it's plastic or digital.

Convenient access to 7-Year Audit Logs of your use of your Digital ID
Used your credit card, which is linked to your Digital ID to buy subscription to PornHub...

This is more like audit logs relating to when your Digital ID was used to verify your identity. Not every transaction linked to your ID number... so open a bank account, store account etc.

Convenient Real-Time Tracking:
Forcing private banks, telecom companies, and state organs to sync with a single population register creates a permanent audit trail of your daily interactions.

Belong to Afriforum - Cancellation of Digital ID
Belong to OUTA - Suspension of Digital ID
Post conspiracy theory on MyBB - Suspension of Digital ID

Seriously? These organizations require ID to signup? If anything that should be questioned...

The sync is in respect of change in address, telephone etc which you're supposed to update in any case - not transactional data.

 

[quovadis]

Government Digital ID is not required to prevent fraud.

Yet it would be far easier to prevent it yourself if you had visibility...

 

[Brian_G]

Q defending the establishment as usual. Anyway, not really worried about this establishment either getting anything complex off the ground or making proper use of it, so who cares

(And waste of money is their speciality, so that much would happen anyway....)

 

[Unreal]

Maybe it’s just the dictator in me but citizens need to be surveilled.
I hate the fact that people do wrong knowing they are invisible to the system.
All the countries I’ve been to and felt the safest in all have surveillance.
There are pros to it as well - like in Singapore. you can literally just walk through the airport with your hands in your pocket- it’s all biometrics