The Odyssey broke attendance records at Ster-Kinekor in an "already phenomenal season" for cinema

[FiestaST]

 

[Mirai]

Not at all. Here's why you are broken. You picked a ridiculous, ignorant, stance and then ran off to find someone, anyone, who shares your distorted view of reality then post it here as if it's universal sentiment.

It isn't.

Maybe try the scientific method and spend 2 seconds attempting to disprove your hypothesis. You will find it is stupidly easy to do so.

Ok, so you have nothing then. Thanks.

Scientific method? Are you like 12?

You want to run an experiment now?

You are precious.

 

[Mirai]

Dude, I never once mentioned MAGA, that is your obsession. All I saw was a bunch of half-wits making silly claims about a movie months before it was even released.

In summary
1) How dare they cast a black woman as the most beautiful woman ever, she clearly needs to be white.

You missed it. That's your whole argument. You're obscessed with some people attacking a black actress therefore criticism of the film is always wrong. You assume I'm making that argument and I'm clearly not.

2) How dare they cast a trans actor as Achilles, Troy was much better (never mind that Elliot page wasn't ever playing Achilles)

Greek trans actor would be fine.

3) This is woke slop, it's going to fail

Never made that argument.

4) Nolan is making casting choices in order to get Oscar Nominations (echoed by Musk and complete BS)

Who cares about Musk?

5) Okay, it might do okay, but it's still hasn't broken even after two weeks
6) It's an Insult to the Greek people because no Greeks were cast.

That is a valid point.

Honestly dude, the procession of pathetic excuses to justify this hatred of a movie would be hilarious if it wasn't so f***ing sad.
The fact that you have appointed yourself the defender of the Greek people's feelings, when they seem to be queuing up to watch the movie is even more sad.

So this is you, projecting your religion on others.

What do you mean I've appointed myself?

So anyone who argues or debates, appoints themselves?

So you've appointed yourself the defender of Kenyan women and transgender people and oh.... Hollywood's poor and bullied director, Nolan.

Why are you defending these people? Did you speak to them or get their permission to defend them?


Cray, you are wearing blinkers because you are obsessed with MAGA so much you fail to see your own dismissal of Greek culture.
Even the GUARDIAN posted someone's letter. Do you think the Guardian would post a MAGA letter?

So again you have not addressed anything from me. It's deflection and strawmen.

Please learn to argue better. Or just put me on ignore.

 

[Cray]

You missed it. That's your whole argument. You're obscessed with some people attacking a black actress therefore criticism of the film is always wrong. You assume I'm making that argument and I'm clearly not.

I have zero issue with people criticisng the film, I have lots of issues with people criticising a film months before it's been released based on the casting and the trailer. Have you seen the film?

Never made that argument.

No, but plenty of other people did, if you are going to give me sh*t about pushing back against criticism, this is one of the things I was pushing back on.

Who cares about Musk?

You made the accussation, I am addressing it.

Cray's whole spiel here is that Maga/Musk attacked Nolan, hence he needs to defend his tribe.

Musk says all sorts of sh*tty things that his supporters lap up.

That is a valid point.

Would it be cool if Greeks were cast, yes, does it matter that none were cast, not really, as long as everyone was hired on merit.

So this is you, projecting your religion on others.

LOL, what religion? Am not projecting anything, anyone is free to hate on the movie for whatever reason, just as I am free to point out that a lot of the hate is totally illogical.,

What do you mean I've appointed myself?

You aren't Greek, yet you are arguing that most Greeks feel slighted by this movie when it's clear that plenty of them enjoy the fact that it's put their culture front and centre.

So anyone who argues or debates, appoints themself?

Nope, you are choosing to speak for others rather as some sort of moral guardian. You have clearly said that I am not in a position to "understand" therefore your opinion counts more than mine, because "reasons".

So you've appointed yourself the defender of Kenyan women and transgender people and oh.... Hollywood's poor and bullied director, Nolan.

I never said that I speak for some vast mass of people who should be offended, I speak for myself and I think the reasons to attack Nolan have been, for the most pretty very silly.

Why are you defending these people? Did you speak to them or get their permission to defend them?

Am not defending, them, am pointing out that the reasons for attacking them are illogical.

Cray, you are wearing blinkers because you are obsessed with MAGA so much you fail to see your own dismissal of Greek culture.
Even the GUARDIAN posted someone's letter. Do you think the Guardian would post a MAGA letter?

The Irony is hilarious, you accuse me of a MAGA obsession but you are the one who brings it up every second post. I don't care about MAGA.

Please learn to argue better. Or just put me on ignore.

My arguments are fine, you just refuse to listen to anyone with a different viewpoint to you.

 

[Azbubu]

Were these same people in the thread as worked up that an Irishman played Marcus Aurelius and a New Zealander was a gladiator?

 

[Cray]

Were these same people in the thread as worked up that an Irishman played Marcus Aurelius and a New Zealander was a gladiator?

And Hans Gruber was played by an Englishman

 

[Mirai]

I have zero issue with people criticisng the film, I have lots of issues with people criticising a film months before it's been released based on the casting and the trailer. Have you seen the film?

Ah an attempt at an ad hominem. I see. Add that to your repertoire. Instead of being rational and saying, yes I'm not Greek. No I don't know what that work which they are close with TODAY means for a small country like that, which gave so much but has so often been treated with disdain by the dominant Western societies. I never looked down upon anyone, so it doesn't happen. But I can't even relate here.

No, but plenty of other people did, if you are going to give me sh*t about pushing back against criticism, this is one of the things I was pushing back on.

You're pushing back at me and using strawmen and deflections based on the above.

You made the accussation, I am addressing it.

You are focused on MAGA/MUSK. Same with the commenters in that thread.

Musk says all sorts of sh*tty things that his supporters lap up.

Terrible. Therefore to heck with the Greeks in their own works. ok.

Would it be cool if Greeks were cast, yes, does it matter that none were cast, not really, as long as everyone was hired on merit.

You're assuming too much here. 1. Merit was used. 2. Merit trumps representation. 3. And how do we define Merit? Merit to make money? or merit to have white Anglo people and some token blacks/trans to appease white Anglo colonial guilt?

So you're saying Greeks have no insight into this?

LOL, what religion? Am not projecting anything, anyone is free to hate on the movie for whatever reason, just as I am free to point out that a lot of the hate is totally illogical.,

Your religion that if a black actress is criticised, it's racism. If they don't want a trans actor, it's transphobia. If a movie is attacked by your ideological opponents, it must be defended at all costs . It is evil to criticise the hiring of a black person in a Greek/Mediterranean work which attempts to be at least superficially historically accurate.

You aren't Greek, yet you are arguing that most Greeks feel slighted by this movie when it's clear that plenty of them enjoy the fact that it's put their culture front and centre.

Again many people can enjoy. I already told you that if you played the old version of Uncle Tom's Cabin many black people would be impressed. Wow - white man did a story about us! Oh we should kiss his hands.

People can 'enjoy' a movie. It is entertainment after all. But still a movie could be done incorrectly. You're assuming that no mass boycott means universal support.

Nope, you are choosing to speak for others rather as some sort of moral guardian. You have clearly said that I am not in a position to "understand" therefore your opinion counts more than mine, because "reasons".

You are not in the position to understand a less dominant culture or people who have been and still are thought of as lower (did you see the criticism of the Greeks how they ran up debt because in effect they're 'lazy' Mediterranean people, and how poor hard working Germans had to 'bail them out'-- just one more example of stereotypes used in the 21st century. You are of the white Anglo culture, you don't know what it's like to live with Greek collective memory and Greek lived experience or face Western attitudes to Greeks and their culture. I know because I'm also from a less dominant culture and I had to face the BS myself and still sometimes do. People say things without realising. It's not on the level of racism of the 1980s but it is not on the level of equal treatment. Stereotypes exist.)

Did you miss the posts from the Guardian and the other arguments. So what there did you disagree with?

I never said that I speak for some vast mass of people who should be offended, I speak for myself and I think the reasons to attack Nolan have been, for the most pretty very silly.

Saying something is silly and not explaining why it is silly is not an argument.

Am not defending, them, am pointing out that the reasons for attacking them are illogical.

Pointing out and not saying why something is illogical, is not logical.

The Irony is hilarious, you accuse me of a MAGA obsession but you are the one who brings it up every second post. I don't care about MAGA.

Because your arguments here against me are anti-MAGA arguments.

My arguments are fine, you just refuse to listen to anyone with a different viewpoint to you.

I listened and still listen to your arguments but saying it's illogical is not an argument.

Argument from personal incredulity is not rational, Cray.

 

[Cray]

So you're saying Greeks have no insight into this?

Nope, am saying Greeks can give their views themselves, if a Greek person got on here and said that this movie was an abomination then fine, I might not agree but am happy to hear their viewpoint. What I don't accept is you thinking your points deserve special consideration because you have a unique understanding of what Greeks feels and the rest of us can't comment.

Your religion that if a black actress is criticised, it's racism.

Not at all. When a black actress is cast as a mythical character and people bitch and moan about her without seeing her performance, then yes, there might be a bit of racism involved.

If they don't want a trans actor, it's transphobia. If a movie is attacked by your ideological opponents, it must be defended at all costs . It is evil to criticise the hiring of a black person in a Greek/Mediterranean work which attempts to be at least superficially historically accurate.

You know that the Mediterranean is pretty close to Africa and the idea of blacks in ancient Greece isn't that far fetched at all. But seriously dude, it's a poem with Gods and a cyclops, moaning about a black Helen of Troy would be silly if I didn't think certain right wingers just don't like seeing black actresses.

People can 'enjoy' a movie. It is entertainment after all. But still a movie could be done incorrectly. You're assuming that no mass boycott means universal support.

Incorrectly according to whose criteria? Perhaps you should go and make a pitch to a studio that is spending $250 million on a film highlighting Greek culture that they aren't doing quite enough.

You are not in the position to understand a less dominant culture or people who have been and still are thought of as lower (did you see the criticism of the Greeks how they ran up debt because in effect they're 'lazy' Mediterranean people, and how poor hard working Germans had to 'bail them out'-- just one more example of stereotypes used in the 21st century. You are of the white Anglo culture,

Dude, I live in South Africa as part of an English speaking white minority. Even during apartheid I was part of a less dominant culture.

you don't know what it's like to live with Greek collective memory and Greek lived experience or face Western attitudes to Greeks and their culture. I know because I'm also from a less dominant culture and I had to face the BS myself and still sometimes do. People say things without realising. It's not on the level of racism of the 1980s but it is not on the level of equal treatment. Stereotypes exist.)

I don't but you do? Have you lived in Greece, have Greek relatives, where does your vast knowledge of their feelings come from?

Did you miss the posts from the Guardian and the other arguments. So what there did you disagree with?

I can sympathise with the point but again, you are asking one of the foremost Directors of the 21st century to cast simply based on ethnicity, seems a very odd stance for a conservative to take.

Saying something is silly and not explaining why it is silly is not an argument.

I have made plenty of arguments, you choose to ignore the fact that most of the arguments against this movie have been made before the movie was release or where just flat out wrong (Elliot Page as Achilles)

Because your arguments here against me are anti-MAGA arguments.

MAGA in general seems pretty illogical and silly, so I can understand how you might conflate my arguments as being anti-MAGA.

 

[TofuMofu]

Were these same people in the thread as worked up that an Irishman played Marcus Aurelius and a New Zealander was a gladiator?

Damn...I have bad news for them about the hobbits in Lord of the Rings.

 

[Mirai]

Nope, am saying Greeks can give their views themselves, if a Greek person got on here and said that this movie was an abomination then fine, I might not agree but am happy to hear their viewpoint. What I don't accept is you thinking your points deserve special consideration because you have a unique understanding of what Greeks feels and the rest of us can't comment.

I'm not saying you can't comment, it's just that you don't see the cultural stakes here.

The Odyssey is foundational to them. And for a country which did not exist for a long time, had to fight for its independence and still is often stereotyped ("lazy Greeks vs saviour Germans") it's important. You don’t have to agree, but you should not dismiss it just because you personally don’t feel it.

Not at all. When a black actress is cast as a mythical character and people bitch and moan about her without seeing her performance, then yes, there might be a bit of racism involved.

The region is not mythical. The story is actually likely based on true events. You should look at the history about it. It was written for Hellenic Greeks and by them. And Kenyan people were never part of that region. Kenya is 1000s of kms away and there was no contact at that time with Kenyan people. You're lumping everyone here as one race. So if Turkic person exists who has darker skin he is not African, and vice versa. Those are more than ethnic groups- those are cultures.

Just because a show has fantastical elements doesn't mean it is all fantasy. The settings are not fantastical. Troy did exist. There was such a war there. There region is real. The fantasy elements are on top of that.

You know that the Mediterranean is pretty close to Africa and the idea of blacks in ancient Greece isn't that far fetched at all. But seriously dude, it's a poem with Gods and a cyclops, moaning about a black Helen of Troy would be silly if I didn't think certain right wingers just don't like seeing black actresses.

Mediterranean is not Kenyan. Sorry.

Incorrectly according to whose criteria? Perhaps you should go and make a pitch to a studio that is spending $250 million on a film highlighting Greek culture that they aren't doing quite enough.

Again poor response. They're making a blockbuster but not using that money on Greek prominence and Greek input.

Dude, I live in South Africa as part of an English speaking white minority. Even during apartheid I was part of a less dominant culture.

You don't relate though and you dismiss Greek peoples' concerns because Nolan is a cool director (and MAGA).

I don't but you do? Have you lived in Greece, have Greek relatives, where does your vast knowledge of their feelings come from?

I already posted examples from real Greeks which you ignore who tell you this is part of their identity. So are you a black woman Cray, why do you defend this actress against Maga?

I can sympathise with the point but again, you are asking one of the foremost Directors of the 21st century to cast simply based on ethnicity, seems a very odd stance for a conservative to take.

It's about cultural identity, authorship and who gets to tell the story as per the linked articles earlier. But ethnicity would be one way to visibly show that, but not the only way. Point is that they chose Kenyan over Greek and so on.

I also don't understand this appeal to authority of Nolan. Nolan is a guy who knows how to point the camera and frame shots and do so in such a way people en masse go to watch those films. And foremost-- how? Because he makes money - he's a show business guy. He doesn't know how to do other things. Again this is not a logical argument. Not saying he sucks as a director i.e. is technically poor. You're not arguing logically here. We've spoken about this before.

Greeks themselves tell you it's embedded in their cultural identity and tied to hardship and migration. They debate who has the right tell their story. An inherently and uniquely Greek story is retold with almost no Greek actors but there is room for foreign faces, as in the Kenyan actress. In a film subsidized by the Greek tax payer?

I have made plenty of arguments, you choose to ignore the fact that most of the arguments against this movie have been made before the movie was release or where just flat out wrong (Elliot Page as Achilles)

I just refuted your appeal to authority above. Nolan knows how to make blockbusters ergo he'll make culturally sensitive films equally well.

MAGA in general seems pretty illogical and silly, so I can understand how you might conflate my arguments as being anti-MAGA.

You're focused on MAGA here and ignoring the merit of at the very least those two Greek articles.

You are afraid to criticise Nolan (maybe) because then you'll be siding with MAGA or become a racist or transphobe.

 

[TofuMofu]

Mediterranean is not Kenyan. Sorry.

Ah there it is! Racism! No surprises there.

 

[Azbubu]

Since we’re taking random Greek people’s opinions, does this one count? If not, why not.

I’m a Black Greek Woman. What Lupita Nyong’o’s Casting as Helen of Troy in ‘The Odyssey’ Meant to Me

For Evelin Boatenk, who grew up in Greece and is of Greek-Ghanaian descent, watching “The Odyssey” made her “feel seen.”

www.today.com

 

[Cray]

The Odyssey is foundational to them. And for a country which did not exist for a long time, had to fight for its independence and still is often stereotyped ("lazy Greeks vs saviour Germans") it's important. You don’t have to agree, but you should not dismiss it just because you personally don’t feel it.

I don't dismiss it, but I think, for the first time in ages people are actually talking about the Odyssey in conversation. Sure, you can have the opinion that it's not perfect but it's certainly better than the if the movie did not exist at all.

The region is not mythical. The story is actually likely based on true events. You should look at the history about it. It was written for Hellenic Greeks and by them.

Almost every source out there describes it as a mythical poem Can you point out your source for suggesting that it's based on true events?

And Kenyan people were never part of that region. Kenya is 1000s of kms away and there was no contact at that time with Kenyan people. You're lumping everyone here as one race. So if Turkic person exists who has darker skin he is not African, and vice versa. Those are more than ethnic groups- those are cultures.

People were moaning that a black actor "takes people out of the stoory" So now nationality not race is the driving factor to "taking people out of the story"? So you are suggesting that we can never cast American's as any ancient characte becuase their country didn't exist at that time? Is this really how sad this argument has become?

Just because a show has fantastical elements doesn't mean it is all fantasy. The settings are not fantastical. Troy did exist. There was such a war there. There region is real. The fantasy elements are on top of that.

Mythical stories can be set in real places. Just like Harry Potter and Spiderman.

Mediterranean is not Kenyan. Sorry.

See my post about how this Kenyan argument is stretching the point.

Again poor response. They're making a blockbuster but not using that money on Greek prominence and Greek input.

It's their money, they are bringing a Greek story to the forefront of popular culture, if you don't like it. You are free not to like it, but at least come up with better reasons if you want people to take you seriously.

You don't relate though and you dismiss Greek peoples' concerns because Nolan is a cool director (and MAGA).

I dismiss you making an argument as if you speak for Greek people. Let the Greeks represnt themselves.

I already posted examples from real Greeks which you ignore who tell you this is part of their identity. So are you a black woman Cray, why do you defend this actress against Maga?

I also posted things were real Greeks are queueing round the block so see it, hardly indicative that the feeling of dislike is universal among Greeks,

It's about cultural identity, authorship and who gets to tell the story as per the linked articles earlier. But ethnicity would be one way to visibly show that, but not the only way. Point is that they chose Kenyan over Greek and so on.

They chose an Emmy and Academy award winning actor to play a part. Her nationality shouldn't and doesn't matter. Also, she is also an American citizen to this Kenyan thing is even more silly in light of that

I also don't understand this appeal to authority of Nolan. Nolan is a guy who knows how to point the camera and frame shots and do so in such a way people en masse go to watch those films. And foremost-- how? Because he makes money - he's a show business guy. He doesn't know how to do other things. Again this is not a logical argument. Not saying he sucks as a director i.e. is technically poor. You're not arguing logically here. We've spoken about this before.

Am saying he knows how to make movies that people watch and enjoy. Part of that process is the casting, does he fill his movies with good actors and actresse who make people want to partake in the stories his movies tell. He makes money now because he has consistently made entertaining movies with good plots and great actors. Take a look at his filmography as a director, there certainly aren't many miss-steps there. (Tenet being a noticeable exeption)

Following

Memento

Insomnia

Batman Begins

The Prestige

The Dark Knight

Inception

The Dark Knight Rises

Interstellar

Dunkirk

Tenet

Oppenheimer

The Odyssey

Greeks themselves tell you it's embedded in their cultural identity and tied to hardship and migration. They debate who has the right tell their story. An inherently and uniquely Greek story is retold with almost no Greek actors but there is room for foreign faces, as in the Kenyan actress. In a film subsidized by the Greek tax payer?

6 Million out of 250, not exactly a massive sum, and perhaps they realised that the movie is doing huge amounts to raise the profile of Greece even without Greek actors.

I just refuted your appeal to authority above. Nolan knows how to make blockbusters ergo he'll make culturally sensitive films equally well.

Culturally sensitive is a very subjective term.

You're focused on MAGA here and ignoring the merit of at the very least those two Greek articles.

You are afraid to criticise Nolan (maybe) because then you'll be siding with MAGA or become a racist or transphobe.

More than happy to criticise Nolan (Tenet sucked). I have no interest in criticisng a movie for some cultural slight that only some people are aggrieved about. I will also reservce my comments on whether the movie is any good until after I have actually seen it.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Greek lives matter.

Next we gonna hear that double cream Greek Yogurt does not really contain Greek culture.

Fun fact next time you see Feta on our shelves pay close attention.

Pretty much none of it is actual Feta and only “feta style”.

 

[rustypup]

The story is actually likely based on true events.

 

[Azbubu]

Fun fact next time you see Feta on our shelves pay close attention.

Pretty much none of it is actual Feta and only “feta style”.

Obviously, they’re not made in the Feta region of Greece.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Obviously, they’re not made in the Feta region of Greece.

But they also aren't even sheep or goat's cheese, the regional kak aside.

We make better "cognac" than anyone in France.

 

[Lawnchairman]

This thread indicates how silly people are.

 

[Mirai]

Ah there it is! Racism! No surprises there.

Can you explain why that is "racism"?

Otherwise withdraw the claim.

 

[rustypup]

Can you explain why that is "racism"?

Can you explain your severely distorted view of reality?

Otherwise, get yourself comitted.