New law in South Africa could block people from selling their cars if they have outstanding traffic fines

New law in South Africa could block people from selling their cars if they have outstanding traffic fines

The Organisation Undoing Tax Abuse (OUTA) is fighting the implementation of the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences (AARTO).

 

[Nerfherder]

How is that not a law already.

Just goes to show how ineffective the current laws are - and how there is no point in paying any fine you recieve.

 

[ToxicBunny]

How is that not a law already.

Just goes to show how ineffective the current laws are - and how there is no point in paying any fine you recieve.

I'm not sure I'd want that to be a law to be honest.

I can get not being able to renew a vehicle license/drivers license if you have outstanding fines, but stopping me from offloading an "asset" seems to be overreach in my opinion.

 

[Nerfherder]

I'm not sure I'd want that to be a law to be honest.

I can get not being able to renew a vehicle license/drivers license if you have outstanding fines, but stopping me from offloading an "asset" seems to be overreach in my opinion.

I don't want it either... just doesn't make sense that they would have fines but let you sell a vehicle that has fines linked to it.

Imagine you purchase a vehicle and then there are R 10k fines linked to that car. Kind of hard to explain that to a cop in a late night roadblock.

 

[ToxicBunny]

I don't want it either... just doesn't make sense that they would have fines but let you sell a vehicle that has fines linked to it.

Imagine you purchase a vehicle and then there are R 10k fines linked to that car. Kind of hard to explain that to a cop in a late night roadblock.

Should be simple enough at that point, if a vehicle has fines linked to it, the minute that the vehicle ownership is transferred the the fines are transferred to the old owner unless the old owner does the leg work to get them assigned to the relevant driver at the time.

 

[karnuffel]

My wife could not get her new car registered because she had a trailer with an expired license disc on her name (we forgot about it... oops)

That makes more sense to me. Allow the selling of assets but stop te registering of new ones. Think about how many people will rush to get the fines off of their names in order to get the new car registered...

 

[Neuk_]

I don't want it either... just doesn't make sense that they would have fines but let you sell a vehicle that has fines linked to it.

Imagine you purchase a vehicle and then there are R 10k fines linked to that car. Kind of hard to explain that to a cop in a late night roadblock.

Fines should be linked to drivers, there has always been a process to nominate the driver who the fine should be linked to, as the 'owner' of said vehicle is not always the driver of said vehicle.

 

[Neuk_]

Should be simple enough at that point, if a vehicle has fines linked to it, the minute that the vehicle ownership is transferred the the fines are transferred to the old owner unless the old owner does the leg work to get them assigned to the relevant driver at the time.

It has always been this way, fines are not linked to cars, they are linked to drivers.

 

[ToxicBunny]

It has always been this way, fines are not linked to cars, they are linked to drivers.

I think its actually a bit of both really.

The car is the identifier, but the responsible "person" is the owner at that point in time.

 

[Neuk_]

I think its actually a bit of both really.

The car is the identifier, but the responsible "person" is the owner at that point in time.

Yes, the initial identifier is the car, the fine goes to the owner though and is never transferred with the car. There is a nomination process to ten transfer the fine to who was actually driving.

 

[Jan van Riebeeckstad]

Make them pay their etolls before selling their vehicle

 

[ToxicBunny]

Yes, the initial identifier is the car, the fine goes to the owner though and is never transferred with the car. There is a nomination process to ten transfer the fine to who was actually driving.

So then this law (or attempted law) to stop a person selling a car is serious overreach then as they still have the fine linked to the original owner.

 

[Neuk_]

So then this law (or attempted law) to stop a person selling a car is serious overreach then as they still have the fine linked to the original owner.

Yep, they are probably looking for a way to 'force' payment by stopping other transactions.

 

[Nerfherder]

It has always been this way, fines are not linked to cars, they are linked to drivers.

They are linked to the owner of the car... unless the person is pulled over and fined.
Most of the time a fine is a speeding fine from a camera or a parking fine, where they don't know who the driver is... so its issued to the registered owner of the vehicle.

In the case where its a fleet vehicle, the registered owner is a business and wont even have a licence.

Those licence plate scanners don't know who the driver is, they are just looking for fines on a licence plate. (or a VIN) if they pull you over.

 

[Nerfherder]

Yep, they are probably looking for a way to 'force' payment by stopping other transactions.

Which is the same thing if you try and sell a house with outstanding rates on it

 

[Neuk_]

They are linked to the owner of the car... unless the person is pulled over and fined.
Most of the time a fine is a speeding fine from a camera or a parking fine, where they don't know who the driver is... so its issued to the registered owner of the vehicle.

In the case where its a fleet vehicle, the registered owner is a business and wont even have a licence.

Those licence plate scanners don't know who the driver is, they are just looking for fines on a licence plate. (or a VIN) if they pull you over.

Yes, and no, fines are initially allocated to the owner of the vehicle but there is a process to transfer to the driver if the driver was not the owner. When a licence plate or VIN is checked the fine list for the owner of the licence plate or VIN are pulled, even for fines on other vehicles that the owner owns. I have had fines transferred off my name and also on to my name before using the official process and have had fines to cars I have previously owned come up when my then current cars licence plate was scanned.

As for fleet vehicles, a company has at least one employee who is the registered proxy for the company, so the vehicle is 'technically' linked to them and they need to go through the process to nominate who the driver was at the time of the fine.

 

[Neuk_]

Which is the same thing if you try and sell a house with outstanding rates on it

I wouldn't equate a fine with municipal rates and rates must be paid when a house is sold because the municipal account is being closed.

 

[Nerfherder]

Yes, and no, fines are initially allocated to the owner of the vehicle but there is a process to transfer to the driver if the driver was not the owner. When a licence plate or VIN is checked the fine list for the owner of the licence plate or VIN are pulled, even for fines on other vehicles that the owner owns. I have had fines transferred off my name and also on to my name before using the official process and have had fines to cars I have previously owned come up when my then current cars licence plate was scanned.

As for fleet vehicles, a company has at least one employee who is the registered proxy for the company, so the vehicle is 'technically' linked to them and they need to go through the process to nominate who the driver was at the time of the fine.

Every fine payment system I have used, uses the Car Registration number to search for fines. This indicates that a fine is issued to a vehicle - not a person.
This is why I say, it makes sense that they require all fines to be paid (or voided) before transfering ownership.

I'm sure there is a mechanism to transfer fines to a person but that is not automatic and i'm sure involves several trips to the DMV.

 

[ghaye]

And I present for your consideration....

Cloned number plates!

How do you as the car owner go about nominating the driver?

 

[Neuk_]

Every fine payment system I have used, uses the Car Registration number to search for fines. This indicates that a fine is issued to a vehicle - not a person.
This is why I say, it makes sense that they require all fines to be paid (or voided) before transfering ownership.

I'm sure there is a mechanism to transfer fines to a person but that is not automatic and i'm sure involves several trips to the DMV.

Never been through a road block where they take your ID or drivers licence to check for fines? A number plate is one method, it links to the owner of the vehicle, hence why fines on more than one vehicle will show up and not just fines incurred by vehicle which licence plate is checked.

We'll have to agree to disagree, there is zero need to have all fines settled or voided when selling a car, they remain with the owner or nominated driver after the vehicle is sold.