What is driving the current “anti alcohol” rhetoric online

Zellephant said:
So, what is up with this cringy social media craze of promoting how much better your life is without alcohol.
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Zellephant said:
I never trust someone who is a teetotaller without a very good reason. People who claim they don’t touch alcohol because they simply don’t like it or see the point, in my experience are always hiding some other serious issues.
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This is part of it and it works both ways. I was in the same boat as you. I thought the only reason people didn't drink was either because they were sick, or they must think they are better than me. It made me suspicious.

So I decided to see for myself. Turns out I was right: now I feel like I'm better than people who drink.

As for how it came about, there was a big shift starting even before COVID. Less going out to clubs and bars. Everyone says a social drink is fine, but when everyone was locked at home for a year, all drinking was by definition the not-good kind, right. Some people would have questioned why they were making cocktails by themselves on a Zoom call.

And a lot of people would have noticed drinking wasn't something they naturally wanted to do. It was just a social ritual. As soon as the pretext went out the window they just stopped, and nothing bad happened. And then along came all the science and elite pundits to justify their decision and make them feel morally superior.

Similar thing happened with smoking. Almost everyone smoked into the ~1960s, but as soon as people had an excuse, about 80% of them dropped it. Then they made the remaining smokers feel like scoundrels. Now the cycle starting again with vaping. Most of the kids doing it don't really want to, they're under peer pressure. They will get their revenge when they're older.

Nicotine and ethanol are not going anywhere but they're also not something everyone wants to have in their life. Lots of people were faking it. And then they come out and gang up and it becomes a class/moral thing... which I think is the part you're actually objecting to.
 
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Foxhound5366 said:
This makes me think of the Chris Rock video on the solution to gun violence. Don't make the guns harder to get, just make each bullet cost $10 000.

Same for expensive alcohol, if it gets too expensive to over-indulge in for most people, then you've cured alcoholism right?
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Pricing it to high heaven with taxes, will just drive prohibition style underground/black market trade. Because at the end of the day, it’s not rocket science to produce the stuff - although it does take some skill to do it well.

Lots of people, many more than you realise will be hobbyists making booze in their garages just for fun or to keep family traditions alive. Almost everyone I know learnt to make wine and grappa/witblits/schnaps/mampoer or whatever you want to call it, from their parents or grandparents, and still make small batches every year when whatever fruit comes into season, myself included.

Taxing the hell out of alcohol to make it unaffordable will just see some of those people ramp up production and start selling underground - like what happened in Covid.
Tomtomtom said:
This is part of it and it works both ways. I was in the same boat as you. I thought the only reason people didn't drink was either because they were sick, or they must think they are better than me. It made me suspicious.

So I decided to see for myself. Turns out I was right: now I feel like I'm better than people who drink.

As for how it came about, there was a big shift starting even before COVID. Less going out to clubs and bars.
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Yes, but what is driving this change is what I am trying to get at. Especially amongst westerners, who have thousands of years deep culture and traditions linked directly to the production and consumption of liquor.
Tomtomtom said:
but when everyone was locked at home for a year, all drinking was by definition the not-good kind, right. Some people would have questioned why they were making cocktails by themselves on a Zoom call.
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Tomtomtom said:
And a lot of people would have noticed drinking wasn't something they naturally wanted to do. It was just a social ritual. As soon as the pretext went out the window they just stopped, and nothing bad happened. And then along came all the science and elite pundits to justify their decision and make them feel morally superior.
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We obviously had very different experiences during Covid.

It seemed to me that almost everyone suddenly became bootleggers. It was actually a good bit of fun for a while playing “bootlegger”. Restaurants were selling their wine stock out the back door, hidden in all sorts of interesting ways - once the restaurants could open again it became a new fun game of finding ways to enjoy a drink in defiance of the “law”. One place we frequented served wine in teapots for example. It’s a fond memory of Covid I will never forget.

My garage still worked overtime also during that time, and I went from only doing a few batches of cherry schnaps each year during cherry festival time, to learning how to distil from all sorts of other fruits - and even tried my hand at grain distills (whiskey) - but it tasted crap.
Tomtomtom said:
Similar thing happened with smoking. Almost everyone smoked into the ~1960s, but as soon as people had an excuse, about 80% of them dropped it. Then they made the remaining smokers feel like scoundrels. Now the cycle starting again with vaping. Most of the kids doing it don't really want to, they're under peer pressure. They will get their revenge when they're older.
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This is also weird to me. How do we at the same time as this sudden “anti alcohol” social pressure is becoming a thing, vaping is taking off - along with broad acceptance of dope smoking.

It’s a strange duality that.
Tomtomtom said:
Nicotine and ethanol are not going anywhere but they're also not something everyone wants to have in their life. Lots of people were faking it. And then they come out and gang up and it becomes a class/moral thing... which I think is the part you're actually objecting to.
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Yeah, the moral high horse thing is what irks me.

Luckily, as long as old money is tied up in wine estates etc, the real classy people aren’t going to buy into the noise though, and our culture will survive🤣
 
I think it’s a simple case of people having more information and therefore being better informed.

It’s not simply accepted as normalised and therefore automatically a-okay.

The economy also plays a part I reckon. It’s more expensive than it ever was.

I think most of us will agree that it’s not really beneficial to us in any healthy way and we would be better off without it as a whole, we are just too far gone to actually do it because of the habit there of and the normalised nature and the adjacent social effects.
 
Zellephant said:
Sorry you had to go through that.

But if you had to suffer through months of withdrawal, you obviously had a drinking problem - which is different to people making a lifestyle choice to not engage in responsible, social alcohol consumption. Thats two different things. Especially when “influencers” with no history of drug abuse, start touting abstinence as if it’s some sort of life hack or super virtuous thing.

Also, like I said in my previous post, I don’t think affordability plays such a big role here. Also, making it about a lifestyle choice/virtue thing is also different to simply not being able to afford it.
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It’s been easy for people who have never used it to tell others not to.

Just like your anti-weed campaign.

Your double standards are truly astounding.

I never trust someone who is a teetotaller without a very good reason. People who claim they don’t touch alcohol because they simply don’t like it or see the point, in my experience are always hiding some other serious issues.
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Now replace alcohol with anything else in that statement. See how that works?

Just because you’ve normalised alcohol doesn’t mean everyone else has.
 
SauRoNZA said:
.I think most of us will agree that it’s not really beneficial to us in any healthy way and we would be better off without it as a whole, we are just too far gone to actually do it because of the habit there of and the normalised nature and the adjacent social effects.
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I can’t completely agree with you here.

When it’s used in moderation, there are actually real health benefits (granted you are using high quality products obviously).

There are proven health benefits with most malted and fermented drinks (wine, beer, ciders etc). They have massive antioxidant properties, boost the production of many healthy hormones etc.

On top of that, there is a very real mental health upside to the “social” aspect of going to a the pub, or having friends over for dinner etc, and allowing a “healthy” amount of alcohol to loosen people up. It’s a damn side healthier than being virtuous online.

SauRoNZA said:
Just because you’ve normalised alcohol doesn’t mean everyone else has.
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I haven’t normalised it - it’s a foundational pillar of western civilisation. Monasteries have existed for thousands of years to produce it, entire cultures exist to preserve certain techniques. Centuries long family estates exist purely because of it.

That’s my entire point. The thing that isn’t normal, is westerners jumping on social media driving a campaign against it, and generations of western/european decent persons suddenly deciding to turn their back on it.

(I must add, as it might come across like I don’t respect the potential for misuse - that I am understanding of the negative side and the impacts of alcohol abuse - but that is a separate issue)
 
Zellephant said:
There are proven health benefits with most malted and fermented drinks (wine, beer, ciders etc). They have massive antioxidant properties, boost the production of many healthy hormones etc.
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That's like saying chocolate has health benefits then eating a Bar-One. Just because alcohol comes bundled in a package that contains some beneficial components, doesn't' make alcohol healthy. Spin it any way you want - end of the day you're no different to the person who wants to smoke a joint every day. You've got a drug of choice and you're using the historical & "health benefits" reasons to rationalise your drug over another drug.

What’s the truth about moderate drinking? We asked Stanford Medicine experts who study alcohol from different angles — addiction, chronic disease prevention and molecular. They all agreed on one thing: The idea that moderate, occasional drinking is good for your health is outdated.

https://med.stanford.edu/news/insig...n-and-your-health--what-the-science-says.html
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This clinging to something 'because it's historical' is, in my view, even more absurd than this social media trend of turning your back on it.
 
Foxhound5366 said:
This makes me think of the Chris Rock video on the solution to gun violence. Don't make the guns harder to get, just make each bullet cost $10 000.

Same for expensive alcohol, if it gets too expensive to over-indulge in for most people, then you've cured alcoholism right?
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I have already responded to this, but after giving it some more thought, I realise just what a stupid idea it really is, for both guns and alcohol.

Just like alcohol, bullets aren't particularly difficult to make. Casing can be reused in some cases hundreds of times, and casting actual projectiles, at least basic lead/copper varieties, is also pretty straightforward. Making them super expensive (which will only be achievable via taxes), will just grow the underground and illicit trade.
 
saor said:
That's like saying chocolate has health benefits then eating a Bar-One.
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No, it's like saying chocolate has health benefits (which it does), and then eating a block or two of real chocolate.

A glass or two of merlot is good for you - that's not me making stuff up, it's a fact. It has digestive benefits, antioxidant benefits, mental health benefits - and hell, it's also pretty good paired with a nice meal. Drinking a bottle or two is probably not a good idea on the daily, though.

Same for proper beer. A glass or two has real, proven health benefits - a keg or two, not so much. But even drinking enough to get drunk once in a while won't have any real long-term negative health effects.

Good quality alcohol is a natural, healthy product, with no additives, no industrial byproducts, etc. It's just made from good, natural ingredients - plus, its waste products have loads of other good uses, like animal feed, and malt porridge for children and and and.

saor said:
Just because alcohol comes bundled in a package that contains some beneficial components, doesn't' make alcohol healthy. Spin it any way you want - end of the day you're no different to the person who wants to smoke a joint every day. You've got a drug of choice and you're using the historical & "health benefits" reasons to rationalise your drug over another drug.
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I don't use health benefits to justify my consumption, or my culture. But the facts about its health benefits do debunk the "influencers" touting it as this massive evil.
saor said:
This clinging to something 'because it's historical' is, in my view, even more absurd than this social media trend of turning your back on it.
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Its not simply historical; it sits central to entire cultures.
 
Zellephant said:
No, it's like saying chocolate has health benefits (which it does), and then eating a block or two of real chocolate.

A glass or two of merlot is good for you - that's not me making stuff up, it's a fact. It has digestive benefits, antioxidant benefits, mental health benefits - and hell, it's also pretty good paired with a nice meal. Drinking a bottle or two is probably not a good idea on the daily, though.

Same for proper beer. A glass or two has real, proven health benefits - a keg or two, not so much. But even drinking enough to get drunk once in a while won't have any real long-term negative health effects.

Good quality alcohol is a natural, healthy product, with no additives, no industrial byproducts, etc. It's just made from good, natural ingredients - plus, its waste products have loads of other good uses, like animal feed, and malt porridge for children and and and.


I don't use health benefits to justify my consumption, or my culture. But the facts about its health benefits do debunk the "influencers" touting it as this massive evil.

Its not simply historical; it sits central to entire cultures.
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I better toss my newly made yogurt…
 
Zellephant said:
I don't use health benefits to justify my consumption, or my culture. But the facts about its health benefits do debunk the "influencers" touting it as this massive evil
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Most of the health benefits you mention are based on out of date thinking, modern medical science suggests that there are no associated health benefits of drinking alcohol.

https://www.who.int/europe/news/ite...of-alcohol-consumption-is-safe-for-our-health

No level of alcohol consumption is safe for our health​

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No suggesting its a massive evil, just that the health aspects are over stated.
 
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