What is driving the current “anti alcohol” rhetoric online

[Cray]

Ah! The $cience...

Ah, yes, those poor scientists.. More unthinking drones who havent achieved your levels of enlightenment

 

[TauTooona]

I have already responded to this, but after giving it some more thought, I realise just what a stupid idea it really is, for both guns and alcohol.

Just like alcohol, bullets aren't particularly difficult to make. Casing can be reused in some cases hundreds of times, and casting actual projectiles, at least basic lead/copper varieties, is also pretty straightforward. Making them super expensive (which will only be achievable via taxes), will just grow the underground and illicit trade.

I may have missed this but how much do you consume? How much do YOU think is too much? Not hating, just curious

 

[HermeticAnarchist]

Ah, yes, those poor scientists.. More unthinking drones who havent achieved your levels of enlightenment

Your source was the World Health Organisation.

You do realise that they only called it that so people would believe it's influence on our health would be benign?

Everything is inverted. You should have noticed that by now.

 

[saor]

A glass or two of merlot is good for you - that's not me making stuff up, it's a fact. It has digestive benefits, antioxidant benefits, mental health benefits - and hell, it's also pretty good paired with a nice meal. Drinking a bottle or two is probably not a good idea on the daily, though.

Most modern views of this would say that any benefits that come from drinking wine are outweighed by the negatives of alcohol. There's no 'healthy alcohol'. It's the same substance, just in a different carrier. You get things like resveratrol in red wine but that's got nothing to do specifically with alcohol. You're putting a very strong emphasis on what seems to be a largely outdated and very over-inflated view of the benefits.

We don't have to agree on this. What's weird though is that you can't seem to accept that you're rationalizing the daily use of a drug and bewildered that a generation is vocally against it?

 

[Cray]

Everything is inverted. You should have noticed that by now.

I clearly dont follow the same conspiracy theory claptrap that you take as gospel, so no, i havent noticed.

 

[Herr der Verboten]

Your source was the World Health Organisation.

You do realise that they only called it that so people would believe it's influence on our health would be benign?

Everything is inverted. You should have noticed that by now.

Same science that say: sex bad, salt bad, sugar bad?

 

[Herr der Verboten]

I clearly dont follow the same conspiracy theory claptrap that you take as gospel, so no, i havent noticed.

Just ask and we will pass the zolle?

 

[Wut]

I think a big part is the trend towards healthier lifestyles and the negative short and long-term effects of alcohol are well documented. Younger people prefer other options and I've even noticed the same trend in the older crowd at my golf club when I'm back home.

 

[Zellephant]

Most of the health benefits you mention are based on out of date thinking, modern medical science suggests that there are no associated health benefits of drinking alcohol.

https://www.who.int/europe/news/ite...of-alcohol-consumption-is-safe-for-our-health


No suggesting its a massive evil, just that the health aspects are over stated.

Let me just get this straight - you lived through Covid, and you still think the WHO is a reliable and trustworthy organisation?

I may have missed this but how much do you consume? How much do YOU think is too much? Not hating, just curious

Me personally - I drink a lot more than I probably should. I have no problem admitting that.

But that’s irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Zellephant]

Most modern views of this would say that any benefits that come from drinking wine are outweighed by the negatives of alcohol. There's no 'healthy alcohol'. It's the same substance, just in a different carrier. You get things like resveratrol in red wine but that's got nothing to do specifically with alcohol. You're putting a very strong emphasis on what seems to be a largely outdated and very over-inflated view of the benefits.

We don't have to agree on this. What's weird though is that you can't seem to accept that you're rationalizing the daily use of a drug and bewildered that a generation is vocally against it?

Okay, so please explain to me, other than red wine, what other 100% natural, “organic” , non industrial, benign product can you consume that has all the same health benefits, and could realistically be made by anyone, safely, in their garage at home with basic equipment if they so wished?

Also, the relatively low alcohol level in wine is mostly irrelevant in small volumes - and yeah, even if it gets you a bit tipsy, that is already a mental health benefit - it lowers anxiety, relaxes you, and allows you to more easily have good social fun.

 

[Cray]

Let me just get this straight - you lived through Covid,

Yes, and?

and you still think the WHO is a reliable and trustworthy organisation?

So when science says that the thing you like is cool, you are all on board with it. When science says something you disagree with, it must be wrong. But sure, here's another source that says the same
thing, give it a read.

https://med.stanford.edu/news/insig...n-and-your-health--what-the-science-says.html

The health risks of alcohol develop because ethanol, the type of alcohol found in beverages, metabolizes into a compound called acetaldehyde, which damages DNA and other cellular components. When acetaldehyde builds up in the body, it can damage cells throughout the digestive system and beyond.

Me personally - I drink a lot more than I probably should. I have no problem admitting that.

Me too, and I accept that the risks associated with it are worth it because life needs to worth living. I dont kid myself by pretending its healthy.

 

[saor]

Okay, so please explain to me, other than red wine, what other 100% natural, “organic” , non industrial, benign product can you consume that has all the same health benefits, and could realistically be made by anyone, safely, in their garage at home with basic equipment if they so wished?

Fermented foods provide plenty health benefits. Foods like saurkraut, kimchi, kombucha etc. I'd say that on a pure phsyical level these are far healthier than whatever you think beer or wine gives you.

Also, the relatively low alcohol level in wine is mostly irrelevant in small volumes - and yeah, even if it gets you a bit tipsy, that is already a mental health benefit - it lowers anxiety, relaxes you, and allows you to more easily have good social fun.

So does meditation. And again I'm all for a generation who are able to have fun and socialise without the need for a drug to lubricate the process.

 

[Herr der Verboten]

I think a big part is the trend towards healthier lifestyles and the negative short and long-term effects of alcohol are well documented. Younger people prefer other options and I've even noticed the same trend in the older crowd at my golf club when I'm back home.

Yet these morons are twins with their phones and ais…

 

[Zellephant]

Yes, and?


So when science says that the thing you like is cool, you are all on board with it. When science says something you disagree with, it must be wrong. But sure, here's another source that says the same
thing, give it a read.

https://med.stanford.edu/news/insig...n-and-your-health--what-the-science-says.html





Me too, and I accept that the risks associated with it are worth it because life needs to worth living. I dont kid myself by pretending its healthy.

When the “science” comes from the WHO, then yes, I will question it.

In fact any “science” can be questioned, that is kinda the point, and if you don’t believe journals, as well as universities, governments departments etc etc etc have biases in which “science” they promote and which they don’t, which they fund and which they don’t etc, then you obviously haven’t tried getting research funded before.

In terms of the Stanford study you posted, that science is clear, no one can question that, but it’s not being looked at in context.

In moderate quantities the human body is very efficient at breaking down the aceltelhyde and excreting it. You need to drink excessively before you start getting into liver damage territory and then the toxins build up and then all the issues your quote mentions become a reality. But people who drink that much, would have other substance abuse issues as well, if it wasn’t alcohol. That’s not the same as normal consumption suddenly being vilified as unnecessary and even shameful, like it is currently being labelled

 

[Foxhound5366]

I have already responded to this, but after giving it some more thought, I realise just what a stupid idea it really is, for both guns and alcohol.

Just like alcohol, bullets aren't particularly difficult to make. Casing can be reused in some cases hundreds of times, and casting actual projectiles, at least basic lead/copper varieties, is also pretty straightforward. Making them super expensive (which will only be achievable via taxes), will just grow the underground and illicit trade.

Dude, do you think I was quoting an idea from a comedian because I was making a serious point? It's a fun thought experiment. However you seem quite aggressive and I'm over it, so sleep well when you get there.

 

[Jean Claude Vaaldamme]

Firstly if the OP calls consuming alcohol part of his culture I think he have a problem. What culture is that?

Secondly influencers go for the new hype and the clicks.
Ferrari Luce is shyte
Your steak must be medium rare
Wagyu is the best there is
Vegan is the way, ok now carnivore is the new way

Thirdly alcohol ruins families, relationships, kids, your health and much more.

 

[Zellephant]

Firstly if the OP calls consuming alcohol part of his culture I think he have a problem. What culture is that?

European or Western culture - which has been carried over to the Western Cape by my forefathers.

Wine, beer and spirits were never just modern vices imported into an otherwise sober tradition. Wine production was central to the cultures of ancient Greece and Rome, and over time it became closely tied to European Christianity, agriculture, commerce and everyday social life. Medieval monasteries played a major role in developing viticulture and brewing, while beer became a staple in communities across northern Europe. Distilling later grew into an important industry across Britain, Ireland and much of continental Europe.

What stands out to me is that alcohol was never just something Europeans consumed, it is something entire systems have been built around. The production of alcohol forms part of the economic and cultural fabric of society. Vineyards, breweries, distilleries, cooperages, merchants, taverns and agricultural networks all developed around it. Regions like France, Italy, Spain and Portugal became defined by wine, while Germany, Belgium, Britain and the Low Countries developed strong brewing traditions that still shape their identities today.

Alcohol also appears constantly in European literature, art, religion and social customs. Wine holds a significant place in Christian liturgy, and the shared act of consuming it, whether beer, wine or spirits, has long been associated with hospitality, celebration and community.

It is also clear to see its continuation in the Western Cape. Our local culture of winemaking and brewing is not separate from this European heritage, it is directly connected to it. The Cape Winelands, with their vineyards, estates and wine routes, reflect a tradition that was brought here centuries ago and has since developed its own identity. Breweries and distilleries in South Africa today similarly build on techniques, styles and cultural practices that have deep European roots, even as they evolve in a uniquely local context.

None of this means I believe excessive drinking is healthy, or that every tradition should be defended simply because it is old. But it does make it difficult for me to accept the claim that alcohol consumption is somehow culturally alien.

So when someone says that drinking alcohol is “part of my culture”, I understand it not as a claim that drunkenness is a virtue, but as a reference to a long historical tradition. It is a tradition in which cultivation, production, trade and consumption of alcoholic beverages have played a significant role, in Europe, and in places like the Western Cape that carry and continue that legacy in their own way.

Thirdly alcohol ruins families, relationships, kids, your health and much more.

No, unchecked mental health issues cause this. Alcohol abuse is a symptom, not a cause.

 

[Herr der Verboten]

lol... words hurt. shem.

 

[Jean Claude Vaaldamme]

European or Western culture - which has been carried over to the Western Cape by my forefathers.

Wine, beer and spirits were never just modern vices imported into an otherwise sober tradition. Wine production was central to the cultures of ancient Greece and Rome, and over time it became closely tied to European Christianity, agriculture, commerce and everyday social life. Medieval monasteries played a major role in developing viticulture and brewing, while beer became a staple in communities across northern Europe. Distilling later grew into an important industry across Britain, Ireland and much of continental Europe.

What stands out to me is that alcohol was never just something Europeans consumed, it is something entire systems have been built around. The production of alcohol forms part of the economic and cultural fabric of society. Vineyards, breweries, distilleries, cooperages, merchants, taverns and agricultural networks all developed around it. Regions like France, Italy, Spain and Portugal became defined by wine, while Germany, Belgium, Britain and the Low Countries developed strong brewing traditions that still shape their identities today.

Alcohol also appears constantly in European literature, art, religion and social customs. Wine holds a significant place in Christian liturgy, and the shared act of consuming it, whether beer, wine or spirits, has long been associated with hospitality, celebration and community.

It is also clear to see its continuation in the Western Cape. Our local culture of winemaking and brewing is not separate from this European heritage, it is directly connected to it. The Cape Winelands, with their vineyards, estates and wine routes, reflect a tradition that was brought here centuries ago and has since developed its own identity. Breweries and distilleries in South Africa today similarly build on techniques, styles and cultural practices that have deep European roots, even as they evolve in a uniquely local context.

None of this means I believe excessive drinking is healthy, or that every tradition should be defended simply because it is old. But it does make it difficult for me to accept the claim that alcohol consumption is somehow culturally alien.

So when someone says that drinking alcohol is “part of my culture”, I understand it not as a claim that drunkenness is a virtue, but as a reference to a long historical tradition. It is a tradition in which cultivation, production, trade and consumption of alcoholic beverages have played a significant role, in Europe, and in places like the Western Cape that carry and continue that legacy in their own way.


No, unchecked mental health issues cause this. Alcohol abuse is a symptom, not a cause.

Surely there is many old traditions from days people were dumber, less educated and less civilized that is frowned upon today?

Funny you keep going on about this wine drinking as a family and only a few people drink excessively. I know very few people/families that just drink a wine here and there. Most people I know drink other stuff and a lot of it.

Furthermore you claimed people that don't drink or say they don't like the taste have other problems.
How do you come to that conclusion? When I was young I was the one that could drink the most at any party. I will stand last. I literally woke up twice under anaesthetics once, and the doctor asked family if I was a heavy drinker. With that said, I did not have a drinking problem. I would never drink alone at home, only on parties.
But did I enjoy the taste? No. I just drank for the vibe, just like people using drugs.
I stopped drinking about 8 years ago. Years before that I drank less and less. My kids never saw me even slightly tipsy. I feel proud as a father about that.
And no I am not like an alcoholic that must not come close to tasting it. I will have an Amarula once or twice a year. If someone tells my whatever the drink taste nice, I will have a sip.
Consuming Alcohol is just not for me anymore. Most of my friends and family drink. I have nothing against it. there is always alcohol in my house, I just don't drink it. I don't need it to have a personality. Most people drink because of underlying problems like their personality, stress or just to forget about things.

People going off about the bad of drinking does not do it for minorities like you that just drink a glass or two wine here and there. They do it to help the vast majority that drink way more often and more quantity.

What is more concerning is you getting offended by these influencers.
People that drink very little will not get offended. Alcoholics in denial normally get offended by the truth.

 

[Zellephant]

Surely there is many old traditions from days people were dumber, less educated and less civilized that is frowned upon today?

I'm not sure I would consider our historical ancestors dumber. Maybe they didn't have all the knowledge we have today, but calling them dumb, I highly doubt it.

I mean, we still haven't figured out how the Egyptians built the pyramids, and they essentially, as far as we can tell, invented beer and wine making.

What about the great greek scholars and philosophers? They had wine at the centre of their society, and still basically figured out all the important maths and science that was required to drive society into modern times.

So your argument falls flat there.

Funny you keep going on about this wine drinking as a family and only a few people drink excessively. I know very few people/families that just drink a wine here and there. Most people I know drink other stuff and a lot of it.

In a healthy society, liquor consumption is a perfectly normal part of family and social life. I will stand by that.

Furthermore you claimed people that don't drink or say they don't like the taste have other problems.

I said, and I stand by it, that in my experience, they are normally masking other issues, yes.

How do you come to that conclusion? When I was young I was the one that could drink the most at any party. I will stand last. I literally woke up twice under anaesthetics once, and the doctor asked family if I was a heavy drinker. With that said, I did not have a drinking problem. I would never drink alone at home, only on parties.

Well, either I have a massive drinking problem - since I often drink alone at home - or I hate to break it to you, you might have had a massive drinking problem. Binge drinking is a textbook definition of a drinking problem - then again, most of us probably engaged in severe binge drinking at some point in our adolescent years - so dont be too hard on yourself.

But did I enjoy the taste? No. I just drank for the vibe, just like people using drugs.

Yeah, I think you had a drinking problem.

I stopped drinking about 8 years ago. Years before that I drank less and less. My kids never saw me even slightly tipsy. I feel proud as a father about that.

Well done. Really, I do mean that.

And no I am not like an alcoholic that must not come close to tasting it. I will have an Amarula once or twice a year. If someone tells my whatever the drink taste nice, I will have a sip.

Okay, so you haven't actually stopped drinking?

Consuming Alcohol is just not for me anymore. Most of my friends and family drink. I have nothing against it. there is always alcohol in my house, I just don't drink it. I don't need it to have a personality. Most people drink because of underlying problems like their personality, stress or just to forget about things.

Or because they enjoy it from a culinary point of view, appreciate the craft that goes into making the stuff, etc. At least, that is why I drink - the fact that it does also help me unwind after a tough day is a secondary benefit - not my reason for drinking.

People going off about the bad of drinking does not do it for minorities like you that just drink a glass or two wine here and there. They do it to help the vast majority that drink way more often and more quantity.

No, then you haven't seen the current trend. They are definitely targeting it more generally towards anyone who consumes alcohol - and for the record, I do still sometimes drink far more than that, and sometimes even get drunk. I am no saint.

What is more concerning is you getting offended by these influencers.
People that drink very little will not get offended. Alcoholics in denial normally get offended by the truth.

I am offended by what I do honestly percieve as an attack on an age old culture - but more than being offended by it, I am intrigued by it, and trying to understand what is driving it.

and just to clear the record, I was poking a bit of fun above - I dont think you are a degenerate with a drinking problem.

My mantra on getting drunk and deciding when its a problem is this.:

If you drink to get drunk, you probably have a drinking problem. If you drink to enjoy and sometimes get drunk, you are probably okay.