What is driving the current “anti alcohol” rhetoric online

Zellephant said:
If you drink to get drunk, you probably have a drinking problem. If you drink to enjoy and sometimes get drunk, you are probably okay.
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Easiest way to tell if you have a drinking problem is can you go for extended periods without it (weeks or more)? If you can't or you feel strong urges or withdrawal symptoms then you have a drinking problem.
 
Zellephant said:
I'm not sure I would consider our historical ancestors dumber. Maybe they didn't have all the knowledge we have today, but calling them dumb, I highly doubt it.

I mean, we still haven't figured out how the Egyptians built the pyramids, and they essentially, as far as we can tell, invented beer and wine making.

What about the great greek scholars and philosophers? They had wine at the centre of their society, and still basically figured out all the important maths and science that was required to drive society into modern times.

So your argument falls flat there.

In a healthy society, liquor consumption is a perfectly normal part of family and social life. I will stand by that.

I said, and I stand by it, that in my experience, they are normally masking other issues, yes.

Well, either I have a massive drinking problem - since I often drink alone at home - or I hate to break it to you, you might have had a massive drinking problem. Binge drinking is a textbook definition of a drinking problem - then again, most of us probably engaged in severe binge drinking at some point in our adolescent years - so dont be too hard on yourself.

Yeah, I think you had a drinking problem.

Well done. Really, I do mean that.

Okay, so you haven't actually stopped drinking?

Or because they enjoy it from a culinary point of view, appreciate the craft that goes into making the stuff, etc. At least, that is why I drink - the fact that it does also help me unwind after a tough day is a secondary benefit - not my reason for drinking.

No, then you haven't seen the current trend. They are definitely targeting it more generally towards anyone who consumes alcohol - and for the record, I do still sometimes drink far more than that, and sometimes even get drunk. I am no saint.

I am offended by what I do honestly percieve as an attack on an age old culture - but more than being offended by it, I am intrigued by it, and trying to understand what is driving it.

and just to clear the record, I was poking a bit of fun above - I dont think you are a degenerate with a drinking problem.

My mantra on getting drunk and deciding when its a problem is this.:

If you drink to get drunk, you probably have a drinking problem. If you drink to enjoy and sometimes get drunk, you are probably okay.
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Yes you are clearly offended because you have a drinking problem, just like every other alcoholic, smoker, drug addict.
You are looking for excuses why you drink and are not truthful to yourself.

When I was young I was known to take a pappegaaislaai here and there. But that was maybe once or twice a year.
Did I get offended by people saying drugs is bad for you? No, I agreed with them because I knew very few people could use it just occasionally like me.

When you start enjoying a drug, it is a problem, like you with alcohol.
 
Jean Claude Vaaldamme said:
When you start enjoying a drug, it is a problem, like you with alcohol.
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Im sorry - we are getting a bit off topic now, but I have to differ with you here. The entire point of taking a drug is to enjoy it. I mean they are called recreational drugs for exactly that reason. If you continue taking it, even if you dont enjoy it, then you have a problem.
 
Zellephant said:
Im sorry - we are getting a bit off topic now, but I have to differ with you here. The entire point of taking a drug is to enjoy it. I mean they are called recreational drugs for exactly that reason. If you continue taking it, even if you dont enjoy it, then you have a problem.
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Yes exactly, you enjoying it for the vibe, not the taste.

That brings us back to.
Jean Claude Vaaldamme said:
Most people drink because of underlying problems like their personality, stress or just to forget about things
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Jean Claude Vaaldamme said:
Yes exactly, you enjoying it for the vibe, not the taste.
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Says who - this is where alcohol, caffeine, and Nicotine become interesting. Because unlike almost all other neuroactive vices, these can actually be enjoyed for their flavour, instead of just for their effect.

I mean, sure, you could mainline them in their base form if all you were after was the kick. But thats not really enjoyable.

But alcoholic drinks can be delicious both to drink and to be used to enhance the flavour of foods. As is the case with coffee. If you are into it, a nice cigar can also be enjoyed for its flavour, or even packed into a pipe.

With caffiene, if you dont enjoy coffee, and you are just after the kick, you have lots of options now in energy drinks that all taste the same but are loaded with enough of the stuff to kickstart a dead horse. Similar with nicotine. If all you want is the kick, then smoking an expensive, hand rolled cigar is probably the worst way to go about it.
Jean Claude Vaaldamme said:
That brings us back to.
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Jean Claude Vaaldamme said:
Most people drink because of underlying problems like their personality, stress or just to forget about things
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So, taking what I said above into account, why dont you tell me why I did the following yesterday - was it my **** personality, stress, just to forget or what:

Yesterday I made lasagna for dinner in the pizza oven. Lasagna at our house is a pretty big deal, and takes most of the day to make. So, directly after church, around 11:00, I got started making the bolognese. By 12:00, it was time to add the wine to the sauce, So I opened a new bottle. most went into the pot, but I poured myself a small glass to sip on as I carried on in the kitchen. At this point, I was alone at home; my wife and kids were out doing stuff, and our dinner guests hadn't arrived yet.

By 14:00, the bolognese was almost ready, the family was back, and it was time to start warming the pizza oven. So we lit a fire, and we opened another bottle of wine, and my wife and I each had a glass while chatting. at 15:00, the sauce was ready and I turned it off to cool down, and our friends just arrived. They also brought wine, which we put aside, we offered them each a glass from our open bottle, and we each had another glass (which meant I had to open another bottle).

Then it was time to roll out the pasta - which is an all-hands-on-deck operation- and the kids and our friends all helped out, while we rolled out pasta, blanched it, and then got onto the ice water to cool. Then began the lasagna layering process, which was again an interactive affair with everyone helping out, and we each had another glass of wine while waiting for the oven to get nice and hot. Then around 18:00 the lasagna went into the pizza oven, we opened the bottle of wine our friends had brought, and each had a glass.

Half an hour later, the food was ready, and we sat down and enjoyed the meal together, where most of us had another glass of wine.

After dinner, we had my wife's homemade tiramisu (which contains alcohol, and we even let the children each have a small serving). We closed off the meal each with a shot of my own homemade, naartjie-infused grappa (which was made with the pomace of my own, homemade wine).

The wives then went inside to make coffee. My friend had just come back from a business trip to Ecuador, and had brought me a box of cigars as a gift. So we stayed in the "braaikammer", I poured us each a tot of 12-year-old potstill brandy, and we each enjoyed a cigar from the box he brought me.

So, was I drinking to forget, drinking to hide my anxiety, or what? What about the cigar? I don't normally smoke, haven't had a cigarette in almost a decade, but I do enjoy a nice cigar once in a while. Was I smoking it for the "vibe" or for the taste?

This coming Friday night, we are visiting friends for a Japanese whiskey tasting evening.... it will be a very similar affair, and I will be taking the cigars with to share with friends there. Will we again not be drinking for the taste?
 
Zellephant said:
Says who - this is where alcohol, caffeine, and Nicotine become interesting. Because unlike almost all other neuroactive vices, these can actually be enjoyed for their flavour, instead of just for their effect.

I mean, sure, you could mainline them in their base form if all you were after was the kick. But thats not really enjoyable.

But alcoholic drinks can be delicious both to drink and to be used to enhance the flavour of foods. As is the case with coffee. If you are into it, a nice cigar can also be enjoyed for its flavour, or even packed into a pipe.

With caffiene, if you dont enjoy coffee, and you are just after the kick, you have lots of options now in energy drinks that all taste the same but are loaded with enough of the stuff to kickstart a dead horse. Similar with nicotine. If all you want is the kick, then smoking an expensive, hand rolled cigar is probably the worst way to go about it.


So, taking what I said above into account, why dont you tell me why I did the following yesterday - was it my **** personality, stress, just to forget or what:

Yesterday I made lasagna for dinner in the pizza oven. Lasagna at our house is a pretty big deal, and takes most of the day to make. So, directly after church, around 11:00, I got started making the bolognese. By 12:00, it was time to add the wine to the sauce, So I opened a new bottle. most went into the pot, but I poured myself a small glass to sip on as I carried on in the kitchen. At this point, I was alone at home; my wife and kids were out doing stuff, and our dinner guests hadn't arrived yet.

By 14:00, the bolognese was almost ready, the family was back, and it was time to start warming the pizza oven. So we lit a fire, and we opened another bottle of wine, and my wife and I each had a glass while chatting. at 15:00, the sauce was ready and I turned it off to cool down, and our friends just arrived. They also brought wine, which we put aside, we offered them each a glass from our open bottle, and we each had another glass (which meant I had to open another bottle).

Then it was time to roll out the pasta - which is an all-hands-on-deck operation- and the kids and our friends all helped out, while we rolled out pasta, blanched it, and then got onto the ice water to cool. Then began the lasagna layering process, which was again an interactive affair with everyone helping out, and we each had another glass of wine while waiting for the oven to get nice and hot. Then around 18:00 the lasagna went into the pizza oven, we opened the bottle of wine our friends had brought, and each had a glass.

Half an hour later, the food was ready, and we sat down and enjoyed the meal together, where most of us had another glass of wine.

After dinner, we had my wife's homemade tiramisu (which contains alcohol, and we even let the children each have a small serving). We closed off the meal each with a shot of my own homemade, naartjie-infused grappa (which was made with the pomace of my own, homemade wine).

The wives then went inside to make coffee. My friend had just come back from a business trip to Ecuador, and had brought me a box of cigars as a gift. So we stayed in the "braaikammer", I poured us each a tot of 12-year-old potstill brandy, and we each enjoyed a cigar from the box he brought me.

So, was I drinking to forget, drinking to hide my anxiety, or what? What about the cigar? I don't normally smoke, haven't had a cigarette in almost a decade, but I do enjoy a nice cigar once in a while. Was I smoking it for the "vibe" or for the taste?

This coming Friday night, we are visiting friends for a Japanese whiskey tasting evening.... it will be a very similar affair, and I will be taking the cigars with to share with friends there. Will we again not be drinking for the taste?
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Listen why do you keep looking for excuses with food and a glass of wine? You already admitted your drinking habits expand far beyond that and that you sometimes get drunk and also it helps you unwind after a tough day.
Classic addict behaviour, excuses for everything.

And again, I have nothing against people drinking alcohol. I probably have 1 bottle whiskey, 5 bottles brandy and 20 bottle wine/liqueurs in my house now. But you the alcoholic that came here all high and mighty having a problem and doing psychological evaluations on anyone that does not drink or like alcohol.
 
Jean Claude Vaaldamme said:
Listen why do you keep looking for excuses with food and a glass of wine? You already admitted your drinking habits expand far beyond that and that you sometimes get drunk and also it helps you unwind after a tough day.
Classic addict behaviour, excuses for everything.

And again, I have nothing against people drinking alcohol. I probably have 1 bottle whiskey, 5 bottles brandy and 20 bottle wine/liqueurs in my house now. But you the alcoholic that came here all high and mighty having a problem and doing psychological evaluations on anyone that does not drink or like alcohol.
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Interesting. Here you are, jumping up and down, calling my an alcoholic etc etc - isntead of just answering my question.

Did I drink "all that" wine and brandy yesterday to get drunk, did I do it to cover up my lack of personality, or did I do it to forget?

You are the one that says it cant be that I did it for the taste and enjoyment of the actual drinks themselves?
 
Zellephant said:
Interesting. Here you are, jumping up and down, calling my an alcoholic etc etc - isntead of just answering my question.

Did I drink "all that" wine and brandy yesterday to get drunk, did I do it to cover up my lack of personality, or did I do it to forget?

You are the one that says it cant be that I did it for the taste and enjoyment of the actual drinks themselves?
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The problem here is I don't know in what state of drunkenness you are, so I don't know what angle I should use to make you understand any argument.

Lets start with a quote from your opening statement on this thread.
I never trust someone who is a teetotaller without a very good reason. People who claim they don’t touch alcohol because they simply don’t like it or see the point, in my experience are always hiding some other serious issues.
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You like to make random statements about people, yet if I make the exact same against you, you demand answers and explenations?

Its pretty funny actually. Way back when I used to drink a lot, I also rated myself as being pretty funny.

Laat hy val waar hy will
 
Jean Claude Vaaldamme said:
The problem here is I don't know in what state of drunkenness you are, so I don't know what angle I should use to make you understand any argument.

Lets start with a quote from your opening statement on this thread.

You like to make random statements about people, yet if I make the exact same against you, you demand answers and explenations?

Its pretty funny actually. Way back when I used to drink a lot, I also rated myself as being pretty funny.

Laat hy val waar hy will
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You are the one who claimed people do not drink for the taste.

I gave you a real life scenario that played out in my life less than 24 hours ago, and asked to tell me, since obviously I didn’t drink any of that because I like the taste, then which of your reasons was it.

Assume I am sober (I am, haven’t had a drop of alcohol today, yet)
 
Jean Claude Vaaldamme said:
The problem here is I don't know in what state of drunkenness you are, so I don't know what angle I should use to make you understand any argument.

Lets start with a quote from your opening statement on this thread.

You like to make random statements about people, yet if I make the exact same against you, you demand answers and explenations?

Its pretty funny actually. Way back when I used to drink a lot, I also rated myself as being pretty funny.

Laat hy val waar hy will
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Arguing with an alcoholic is like playing pigeon with a chess, or something.
 
Alcoholics go to meetings
drunks go to parties.

The youth of today are forgoing alcohol, not tick tock worthy buying a papsack from the local shebeen.
 
Glad to see alcohol use dying out. People are getting smarter about this. Alcohol has cost more lives and money than all the wars ever fought. In SA for instance alcohol was a factor in a little over 50% of murders and a significant portion of road deaths. Globally it sits at around 48% depending on the study for homicide.

If Alcohol was discovered today it would be considered a party drug and would be illegal. It just gets special protection due to its history.
 
Cius said:
Glad to see alcohol use dying out. People are getting smarter about this. Alcohol has cost more lives and money than all the wars ever fought. In SA for instance alcohol was a factor in a little over 50% of murders and a significant portion of road deaths. Globally it sits at around 48% depending on the study for homicide.

If Alcohol was discovered today it would be considered a party drug and would be illegal. It just gets special protection due to its history.
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This sounds a lot like alcohol abuse played a factor in all these things. The alcohol itself or the mere fact it exists is not the real problem, people’s mental health clearly is, which leads to abuse etc etc.

Let’s look at road deaths as an example, since you bring it up. What percentage of road accidents are caused by speed? We see billboards all the time warning us that speed kills. Yet we keep on making faster and faster cars - even budget cars now are easily capable of massively exceeding the speed limit. So why don’t they just ban speeding, and make it compulsory for all cars to be fitted with governers that make it impossible for them to exceed the speed limit?
 
Cius said:
Glad to see alcohol use dying out. People are getting smarter about this. Alcohol has cost more lives and money than all the wars ever fought. In SA for instance alcohol was a factor in a little over 50% of murders and a significant portion of road deaths. Globally it sits at around 48% depending on the study for homicide.

If Alcohol was discovered today it would be considered a party drug and would be illegal. It just gets special protection due to its history.
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That's life, some Neanderthals still want to hunt, smear blood on their face and eat raw liver.
 
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