Cape underworld figure Mark Lifman gunned down in George

[Bliksis]

they are going to hava a difficult time explaining what they were doing in the parking area, then later changing number plates ofter turning off the main road into some random farm.

how does one go even about explaining that
View attachment 1879251

Rubbish footage, wow.

 

[airborne]

The boys were back in court and bail denied for the 5th time I think it is now.
Day 656 of being locked up in the awaiting trial cells, living their best South African life in true local style.
Damn those guys must be regretting their life decisions..

Lifman murder accused challenge refusal of bail

GEORGE NEWS - The two men accused of...

www.georgeherald.com

 

[Sideshow Bob]

The boys were back in court and bail denied for the 5th time I think it is now.
Day 656 of being locked up in the awaiting trial cells, living their best South African life in true local style.
Damn those guys must be regretting their life decisions..

Lifman murder accused challenge refusal of bail

GEORGE NEWS - The two men accused of...

www.georgeherald.com

I don't know much about this but if they are not guilty, why would they regret life decisions? At Madlanga, we know what Police are capable of. I mean, they could have been framed for all I know.

 

[airborne]

I don't know much about this but if they are not guilty, why would they regret life decisions? At Madlanga, we know what Police are capable of. I mean, they could have been framed for all I know.

The chances of them not being guilty is slim and even if they aren't they would be regretting their associations with known criminal activity/organisations which resulted in them being pulled into the web.
But you are right, the police could very easily have framed them but that would still be as a result of their criminal associations.

 

[Gordon_R]

I don't know much about this but if they are not guilty, why would they regret life decisions? At Madlanga, we know what Police are capable of. I mean, they could have been framed for all I know.

Like most criminals the main thing that they regret is getting caught. Through stupidity on their part, and support from the neighbourhood watch. They thought they had all the bases covered, all the payoffs made, etc. It all came down to the dumbest move every, changing number plates in front of a CCTV camera...

 

[Grant]

The boys were back in court and bail denied for the 5th time I think it is now.
Day 656 of being locked up in the awaiting trial cells, living their best South African life in true local style.
Damn those guys must be regretting their life decisions..

Lifman murder accused challenge refusal of bail

GEORGE NEWS - The two men accused of...

www.georgeherald.com

hmmm
interesting:

Adv. Michael Hellens SC, representing Jacobs, and Adv. Rubin Liddell SC,

they brought in the very hard hitting big guns - and again failed.
probably time for them to adjust to 25yrs of weak tea & stale bread

 

[Grant]

I don't know much about this but if they are not guilty, why would they regret life decisions? At Madlanga, we know what Police are capable of. I mean, they could have been framed for all I know.

they are guilty, be sure.
eyewitnesses saw them shooting out of the vw in the parking area of the shopping centre (also as per cctv camera recordings there) - the very same vw they wisely swapped number plates on, in view of another cctv camera

 

[airborne]

hmmm
interesting:

they brought in the very big hard hitting big guns - and again failed.
probably time for them to adjust to 25yrs of weak tea & stale bread

True I didn't notice that, how much would they have been paying for that little appearance?
Probably in the R50k+ range per Advocate + travel and accommodation costs?

 

[Sideshow Bob]

Like most criminals the main thing that they regret is getting caught. Through stupidity on their part, and support from the neighbourhood watch. They thought they had all the bases covered, all the payoffs made, etc. It all came down to the dumbest move every, changing number plates in front of a CCTV camera...

they are guilty, be sure.
eyewitnesses saw them shooting out of the vw in the parking area of the shopping centre (also as per cctv camera recordings there) - the very same vw they wisely swapped number plates on, in view of another cctv camera

Oh ok, had nfi idea about this. Thanks.

 

[Grant]

But you are right, the police could very easily have framed them but that would still be as a result of their criminal associations.

i very much doubt the police would have taken that level of risk given lifman's profile, couple with his very deep reach into both saps & anc leadership

sometimes any potential reward is simply not worth the risk involved

 

[Gordon_R]

hmmm
interesting:

they brought in the very hard hitting big guns - and again failed.
probably time for them to adjust to 25yrs of weak tea & stale bread

Interesting that they have different advocates. They might be considering different plea deals, since it's likely than only one pulled the trigger. Or maybe not, considering their life expectancy either way...

 

[Grant]

True I didn't notice that, how much would they have been paying for that little appearance?
Probably in the R50k+ range per Advocate + travel and accommodation costs?

probably around that figure.
you could also add around R15k or so per sc to take briefing from the respective attorneys.
so they are probably looking at around R80k per sc, all in

 

[Grant]

Interesting that they have different advocates. They might be considering different plea deals, since it's likely than only one pulled the trigger. Or maybe not, considering their life expectancy either way...

in my exerience - well not my own - i'm friends with 2 ex high court judges in dbn.
both were senior council prior to bench appointment.

out of endless dinner conversations which for the most part gravitated to legal talk, i gained the distinct impression different counsel representing different clients in the same matter, would work i concert in order to create the necessary doubt on the veracity of evidence presented by the state.

another gem i learnt - its gold.
as an accused, have your version of events running parallel to the version presented by the state & witnesses - as identical as possible.
this makes it very very difficult for a judge / magistrate to come to any conclusion "beyond reasonable doubt".
details then have to become "granular" - a benchmark the state is often unable to meet.

 

[airborne]

in my exerience - well not my own - i'm friends with 2 ex high court judges in dbn.
both were senior council prior to bench appointment.

out of endless dinner conversations which for the most part gravitated to legal talk, i gained the distinct impression different counsel representing different clients in the same matter, would work i concert in order to create the necessary doubt on the veracity of evidence presented by the state.

another gem i learnt - its gold.
as an accused, have your version of events running parallel to the version presented by the state & witnesses - as identical as possible.
this makes it very very difficult for a judge / magistrate to come to any conclusion "beyond reasonable doubt".
details then have to become "granular" - a benchmark the state is often unable to meet.

By that you mean the accused timeline and story will match the state/witnesses to a large degree only to diverge at the inculpatory evidence, which means the prosecutor really has to provide actual damning evidence to prove guilt "beyond reasonable doubt"?

 

[Gordon_R]

in my exerience - well not my own - i'm friends with 2 ex high court judges in dbn.
both were senior council prior to bench appointment.

out of endless dinner conversations which for the most part gravitated to legal talk, i gained the distinct impression different counsel representing different clients in the same matter, would work i concert in order to create the necessary doubt on the veracity of evidence presented by the state.

another gem i learnt - its gold.
as an accused, have your version of events running parallel to the version presented by the state & witnesses - as identical as possible.
this makes it very very difficult for a judge / magistrate to come to any conclusion "beyond reasonable doubt".
details then have to become "granular" - a benchmark the state is often unable to meet.

By that you mean the accused timeline and story will match the state/witnesses to a large degree only to diverge at the inculpatory evidence, which means the prosecutor really has to provide actual damning evidence to prove guilt "beyond reasonable doubt"?

Interesting perspectives. Completely off topic, but I was wondering if the same thing applies to traffic offences, particularly where it boils down to he said/she said situations.

In some jurisdictions there is so called 'presumption of regularity'.

Presumption of Regularity is a legal principle stating that public officials and routine business transactions are presumed to have acted properly and lawfully until proven otherwise.

Application: Courts use this doctrine to defer to government agencies or accept standard commercial processes without demanding immediate proof of every underlying step, placing the burden of proof on the challenger.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_regularity

 

[Grant]

By that you mean the accused timeline and story will match the state/witnesses to a large degree only to diverge at the inculpatory evidence, which means the prosecutor really has to provide actual damning evidence to prove guilt "beyond reasonable doubt"?

indeed

 

[Grant]

Interesting perspectives. Completely off topic, but I was wondering if the same thing applies to traffic offences, particularly where it boils down to he said/she said situations.

In some jurisdictions there is so called 'presumption of regularity'.


See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_regularity

there is a distinct difference in courts.
our criminal / civil courts operate within the framework of national legislation.

traffic courts however, operate under / enforcing the by-laws of the municipality of its jurisdiction

 

[airborne]

there is a distinct difference in courts.
our criminal / civil courts operate within the framework of national legislation.

traffic courts however, operate under / enforcing the by-laws of the municipality of its jurisdiction

But isn't the same burden of evidence required and hence the same thing as previously outlined would apply?

 

[Gordon_R]

But isn't the same burden of evidence required and hence the same thing as previously outlined would apply?

Jurisdiction and rules of evidence are completely different things. I think Grant's point is that the burden of evidence is proportional to the severity of the penalty. A R500 speeding fine is not the same as a murder conviction...

Google:

In South African law, scheduled offences are specific categories of crimes listed in the Criminal Procedure Act 51 of 1977. They dictate police arrest powers, how bail applications are handled, and the legal burden of proof required in court.

Schedule 6 (Most Serious Offences)
Purpose: Reserved for the most severe, planned, or multi-incident violent crimes.
Examples: Premeditated murder, rape committed more than once or with heavy aggravating features, and high-level aggravated robbery.
Bail Impact: Triggers the strictest bail test. The accused must prove exceptional circumstances why it is in the interest of justice to be released before trial.

 

[xrapidx]

probably around that figure.
you could also add around R15k or so per sc to take briefing from the respective attorneys.
so they are probably looking at around R80k per sc, all in

Htf is footing the bill though.