Any chance?

Well, its been a week since my first post and I have some progress. Since my last post I have switched from the courses on Pluralsight so the courses on Datacamp and I have completed the Introductory and Intermediate Python Courses. What I like about the Datacamp Courses is that they are more interactive and each lesson has more exercise that you have to complete. I am planning on completing the whole Python path on Datacamp and then move on to other exercise and my own projects.

I have also read up on the AWS certifications and plan on doing those.

The question is whether one will be able to be employed with only this knowledge. Most of the jobs ads (in any sector) require some form or period of experience. Without experience you cant get the job and without a job you cant get experience?

Any advice in this regard will be appreciated. Will there be companies that will employ you, even for no salary, just to get on the job experience and experience in working in real world projects and problems?
 
Completion of a course or a degree is not proof of ability, nor will it prove to any degree your competency as a programmer.

You only become more competent by writing code every day, a lot of it! (weekend coding isn't going to cut it); on top of that sharing your projects on e.g. GitHub should be seen as part of building up your profile. Secondly start reading and trying to understand code on Github; one of the biggest challenges is trying to make sense of someone else's code.
 
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Well this is actually cool!

I am self learning too, started with Pyth, I changed to C# because it is a good way to learn structure and develop an easy to read programming style.

If you want, we can learn together? There are a whole host of open source tools we can use to communicate and of course share code.

I have only gained the motivation to code every day recently and I am defs still a noob.

Pop me a PM if you are interested in chatting or learning together.
 
Programming Language depends what you want to do and who you'll potentially work for.

Anything highly structured + corporate, Java & C# would be the goto (SA companies love C# and other M$ products - not that widely used in Europe however).

Web Development: HTML + CSS + JS (all standard). For backend, PHP & Ruby(rails) seems pretty popular amongst indie web devs - with Python & Django gaining popularity (my personal favourite) - If you get into web-dev, get to know Linux servers + Nginx.

All round language - Probably Python. Easy to learn, loads of libraries and very cross platform, Linux/Mac/OSX - good for building Web Systems (Frameworks like Django and Flask are really cool) and even desktop apps.. With other frameworks you can even convert it into Android + iOS apps. :)
 
ronald911 said:
Programming Language depends what you want to do and who you'll potentially work for.

Anything highly structured + corporate, Java & C# would be the goto (SA companies love C# and other M$ products - not that widely used in Europe however).

Web Development: HTML + CSS + JS (all standard). For backend, PHP & Ruby(rails) seems pretty popular amongst indie web devs - with Python & Django gaining popularity (my personal favourite) - If you get into web-dev, get to know Linux servers + Nginx.

All round language - Probably Python. Easy to learn, loads of libraries and very cross platform, Linux/Mac/OSX - good for building Web Systems (Frameworks like Django and Flask are really cool) and even desktop apps.. With other frameworks you can even convert it into Android + iOS apps. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I started off with Python 2 weeks ago and completed the first two courses on DataCamp. Last week I started looking at C# and I quite like it. It feels to me as if I just understand it better than Python. I did about three days of solid learning and coding and it is surprising how much you progress with practice.

I saw an interesting video last night that was posted by a self taught programmer and got some tips on getting a job while being self taught and having no experience. It basically boils down to coding a lot and building a portfolio with projects you have done in lieu of the experience.

Unfortunately this takes a lot of time, which I don't have. So the plan in the meantime is to continue learning and building projects and start looking for a job where someone would be willing to employ me with no experience, but where they can use my prior education and experience.

In that way, I can still learn but be of some value and receive an income.
 
Hi PrinceVlad,

The first question you need to ask yourself, is what do you want to do? What title would you like to have after being in your new profession for lets say 5 years? Is it a web developer, software engineer, software developer etc. Once you have the answer, take a look at what you need to know to at least get a foot in the door. From there you can reverse engineer the whole process and start your learning. Do you want to be a Senior C# Developer? Well then, check the latest job postings and look at the requirements.

A lot of answers here recommend that it does not matter what language you learn. I actually completely disagree with this statement and especially so in your case. You need to choose a language that is popular, will be around for at least the next 5 years and most importantly make you employable. Only once you are experienced, understand OOP principles, design patterns etc is it much easier to hop between programming languages (i.e. you are now skilled and experienced). Essentially, you need to be completely proficient and an expert in one language before trying another. This may take you 3 months, or it could be 3 years. Also, in this time period if you are working with anything web related, you could be using SQL, JavaScript, HTML, jQuery, Angular(JS), database design, MVC, Web API, Bootstrap, Entity Framework, CSS, Sass, LESS... The skill set required can be quite daunting, but you need to make a choice and start now. It sounds like you are a little uncertain and this can be quite detrimental as often uncertainty can breed procrastination.

Are you an expert using visual studio yet? How good are you with sublime text?

Also, you have a lot more time than you realise. Carry around a laptop or a tablet wherever you go. If you are waiting to pick someone up, rewatch a video you watched the night before to solidify your understanding; perhaps the topic was on abstract data types and you misunderstood a few concepts. Listen to podcasts if you are driving in traffic. Even while you work at home, you can listen to podcasts. You need to consume as much information as possible... just make sure it is the correct information, applicable to you and what you want to be doing.

The best way to understand programming is to actually build something useful. You can perhaps start small. Build a small chat room, build a small app for your budget, create a system that generates your weekly shopping list etc.

I see my programming career as one of phases. I have a learning phase, then a building phase where I put what I have learnt into practice. Learn for a week, practice for a week. Find something that works for you.

Good luck and happy coding!
 
Syzygy78 said:
Hi PrinceVlad,

The first question you need to ask yourself, is what do you want to do? What title would you like to have after being in your new profession for lets say 5 years? Is it a web developer, software engineer, software developer etc. Once you have the answer, take a look at what you need to know to at least get a foot in the door. From there you can reverse engineer the whole process and start your learning. Do you want to be a Senior C# Developer? Well then, check the latest job postings and look at the requirements.

A lot of answers here recommend that it does not matter what language you learn. I actually completely disagree with this statement and especially so in your case. You need to choose a language that is popular, will be around for at least the next 5 years and most importantly make you employable. Only once you are experienced, understand OOP principles, design patterns etc is it much easier to hop between programming languages (i.e. you are now skilled and experienced). Essentially, you need to be completely proficient and an expert in one language before trying another. This may take you 3 months, or it could be 3 years. Also, in this time period if you are working with anything web related, you could be using SQL, JavaScript, HTML, jQuery, Angular(JS), database design, MVC, Web API, Bootstrap, Entity Framework, CSS, Sass, LESS... The skill set required can be quite daunting, but you need to make a choice and start now. It sounds like you are a little uncertain and this can be quite detrimental as often uncertainty can breed procrastination.

Are you an expert using visual studio yet? How good are you with sublime text?

Also, you have a lot more time than you realise. Carry around a laptop or a tablet wherever you go. If you are waiting to pick someone up, rewatch a video you watched the night before to solidify your understanding; perhaps the topic was on abstract data types and you misunderstood a few concepts. Listen to podcasts if you are driving in traffic. Even while you work at home, you can listen to podcasts. You need to consume as much information as possible... just make sure it is the correct information, applicable to you and what you want to be doing.

The best way to understand programming is to actually build something useful. You can perhaps start small. Build a small chat room, build a small app for your budget, create a system that generates your weekly shopping list etc.

I see my programming career as one of phases. I have a learning phase, then a building phase where I put what I have learnt into practice. Learn for a week, practice for a week. Find something that works for you.

Good luck and happy coding!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice.

Like I mentioned earlier I started looking at Python and then started with C# last week. I feel that I enjoy it more than Python. I looked at various online courses but find that the video content does not hold my attention so got a few books over the weekend. I started working through one of the books and the exercises in it.

Today I found a list of 100 problems to solve on the learnprogramming reddit and I did a few of those. So I am thinking of pursuing C# and then, as you said, learn another language when I know C#.

By not much time I meant that I am for all intents and purposes unemployed at this stage due to our side business only bringing in an income now and then and it is not at all regular.

For anyone that is interest and would like to give some feedback I registered an account on Github where I will put my projects. It can be found here https://github.com/RDeminey and the repositories on there is the problems I did today. I only upload the repositories where I did not look at the answer i.e where I figured it out myself.

Hope to post again soon.

Cheers
 
Hi Guys

Well it is two weeks down the line and I am still busy learning and doing exercises although the past two days I haven't had much time to do much.

I have also found the Hyperion Development Bootcamps here https://www.hyperiondev.com/

I am interested in either the Software Engineer Bootcamp which is based on Python and Java, or the Mobile Developer Bootcamp which focuses on Java and Android development. They also offer the full stack web development bootcamp.

My thinking is that these bootcamps offer a lot of structure which I like and would maybe ease the entry into the market once completed.

What are your thoughts on these bootcamps? Has anyone here done any of the bootcamps and be able to provide feedback.

Your thoughts and advice please?

Thanks
 
Hi Guys

Next week it will be 9 months since my post starting this thread and I thought it would be a good time to give an update on my progress so far.

As a result of my business not doing well I asked whether it would be possible to start software development at my age (39), whether one could get a job in software development without a job and some good resources to start with. In short I wanted to know whether it would be possible to make a career change at that stage.

After my last post last year I continued learning without much direction, doing a bit of everything. Soon after my first post I decided that I would still send out my CV for jobs relevant to my qualifications (legal) and I sent out quite a few without success. My thinking at that stage was that I could get a job somewhere just to have some income seeing that I did not earn much since the beginning of 2018. I would then learn coding in my spare time.

In about the first week of June I received an invite to an interview for a legal advisor, which I attended and got the job. I must say that I did not spend much time coding as I got home at about 18h00 in the evenings and then spent time with my family, but where I got the chance I did some coding, even if just for half an hour. At the end of June I did not receive my salary and on 2 July 2018, after not being paid I left the company. Despite several requests for payment I only received a part payment of the salary in December. I have also found out since that several other employees have not been paid for periods exceeding 6 months.

Be that as it may, I received another invite for a legal advisor position at the end of July, which I was unsuccessful with due to being over qualified, having 13 years of experience as a legal practitioner.

In August I decided that I would give all to learn development and started with a web development course on Udemy. In September I changed my LinkedIn profile from being a legal practitioner to being a web developer and I registered a profile on Upwork to see whether it would be possible getting some work there.

On my third proposal I received an interview request for a junior / entry level position for a company in Canada and I got the job. I was busy with that contract until the middle on November and the client gave me a very good review.

During December I received another interview request for a ongoing Front End Web Developer position for another company in Canada. I firstly had to answer some questions relating to logic and then had to do a test. I got the job and started working with them just before the December break. In that time I have done a few task relating to front end work for them and I have now received my first back end work from them. I am really excited as the back end is based on C# and .Net which I like and wanted to learn more of. Incidentally, the first company has also contacted me again for more work which will probably take 4 - 5 months to complete.

My goals for this year is to learn more, gain more experience and maybe get something in SA with a more consistent and secure income.

So back to my question.

I might not have much experience, I am not working on large projects yet and I struggle to call myself a web developer, but I believe it is possible to make a career change at my age.

P.S Sorry for the long post, but I thought a proper update would be fitting and maybe someone in my situation can benefit from it.
 
Well Done!
Congrats on walking a hard path and doing so well!
 
Congrats. Its tough out there. 2019 is going to break a lot of people.
 
Man. This feels like you created this thread 3 months ago. I would have finished my first year by now had I registered.
 
Thanks Guys. After my break for the December holidays I am back to working again. When I am not busy with one of the freelance projects I try to code as much as I can. Since Monday I have been doing 8 hours a day and I must say after a short break it wears you out.

Just one question. I started learning in April and started freelancing in September. If I look for a full time job, how much can I realistically expect to earn?

I have been weighing up the freelancing vs full time job thing and have been looking at a few ads on indeed. I have found quite a few where they pay between R5000 and R7000 per month. That doesn't sound right. Our receptionist at my previous office was paid R12k per month.

For that amount it makes sense to rather do the freelancing thing.

I would really appreciate your advice in this regard.

Thanks
 
How have you been getting the freelance work? Has it all been through Up Work?
 
c10n3d_0r6 said:
How have you been getting the freelance work? Has it all been through Up Work?
Click to expand...

Yip, I have been using only Upwork. I guess I have been lucky as I registered my profile 22 September 2018, it was approved on 23 September and I started doing proposals on 25 September. On my third proposal I was interviewed and got a project to do. I was busy with that until November and in December I got a new project which I did quite a lot of work for in December and beginning January.

The first client sent me the offer last night for a new project that, according to my calculation will take anywhere from 3 to 6 months.

Granted, the money is not that good and I will still only 'survive, rather than make a comfortable living, but it is still a lot more than the R5k to R7k a month mentioned in the previous post. However, like I mentioned in the previous post I would love to get a job in SA where the income is a bit more secure, as the income from freelancing (at least in the beginning stages) can be a bit erratic. I have, however, realised that the longer I freelance the more difficult it is going to get a permanent job which pays the same.

The other option I though about was to look at remote jobs, but that is another story altogether.
 
Remote is one option. It can be great of you've got the right personality for it and the company embraces it properly. Ideally you'd want to work at a company that is fully remote otherwise you may feel out of touch with what is happening at the office.

You should be able to start charging more for freelance work as you get more experience and you're able to take on more complicated projects. I've read about some people who've used freelancing platforms like Upwork and eventually were offered full-time remote work through some company that regularly used them on the platform. You could also check out remoteok which lists remote jobs:
https://remoteok.io/

I've found that South African companies generally offer below international levels for developers salaries. Granted, our living costs and social environment are different, but if you're only directly comparing salary to salary you'll probably find South African companies on the lower end. Have you tried using OfferZen? You might be able to get better success there than looking at job portal websites which are often mostly a collection of recruitment agency adverts.
https://www.offerzen.com/
 
c10n3d_0r6 said:
Remote is one option. It can be great of you've got the right personality for it and the company embraces it properly. Ideally you'd want to work at a company that is fully remote otherwise you may feel out of touch with what is happening at the office.

You should be able to start charging more for freelance work as you get more experience and you're able to take on more complicated projects. I've read about some people who've used freelancing platforms like Upwork and eventually were offered full-time remote work through some company that regularly used them on the platform. You could also check out remoteok which lists remote jobs:
https://remoteok.io/

I've found that South African companies generally offer below international levels for developers salaries. Granted, our living costs and social environment are different, but if you're only directly comparing salary to salary you'll probably find South African companies on the lower end. Have you tried using OfferZen? You might be able to get better success there than looking at job portal websites which are often mostly a collection of recruitment agency adverts.
https://www.offerzen.com/
Click to expand...

Thanks. I have tried Offerzen. I was weighed and was found wanting. Was told to try again in six months.

At least I have this project which can keep me busy and bring in some money for a while. In the meantime I will keep looking for something.

The problem I see with Upwork is that you compete with guys that charge $3 per hour. Even on 10 hours a day you're looking at $30 a day, which at the current exchange rate is about R390 per day. Calculated on 22 days that's R8580 per month. Mind you, that's still more than some of the ads mentioned earlier, but still less than I need every month.

Do you also freelance?
 
PrinceVlad said:
Yip, I have been using only Upwork. I guess I have been lucky as I registered my profile 22 September 2018, it was approved on 23 September and I started doing proposals on 25 September. On my third proposal I was interviewed and got a project to do. I was busy with that until November and in December I got a new project which I did quite a lot of work for in December and beginning January.

The first client sent me the offer last night for a new project that, according to my calculation will take anywhere from 3 to 6 months.

Granted, the money is not that good and I will still only 'survive, rather than make a comfortable living, but it is still a lot more than the R5k to R7k a month mentioned in the previous post. However, like I mentioned in the previous post I would love to get a job in SA where the income is a bit more secure, as the income from freelancing (at least in the beginning stages) can be a bit erratic. I have, however, realised that the longer I freelance the more difficult it is going to get a permanent job which pays the same.

The other option I though about was to look at remote jobs, but that is another story altogether.
Click to expand...

I have been Freelancing since a left school more than a decade ago. I have never worked for an SA company. I am fortunate enough to have one company that brings in a steady income every month and then extra projects on top of that. But Freelancing is a bit erratic also because you never see the client or go to the country. If they don't email or skype, there is no work. I am also very strict in how and when I get paid with Ts&Cs. I am not there to do a favour but render a service.

Problem with Upwork, Freelancer etc. is that some of the clients are really cheap skates and there is always a Filipino or Indian willing to do it for next to nothing. (only see your post above mentioning it.) I refuse to do any work for less than 25USD per hour, but usually 30USD per hour. So as you can guess I don't really land projects on those platforms.

It helps if you can make some good Filipino or Indian friends.
 
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