I keep hearing this but I don't see it in the market. Which companies are actually recruiting at the moment? I only know of one.
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I keep hearing this but I don't see it in the market. Which companies are actually recruiting at the moment? I only know of one.
I know of quite a lot in Gauteng and Cape Town, but it depends which technology camp you fall into (I'm assuming Microsoft/.NET?)
Roxi_B4b3
Senior Member
we had no idea what was out there, he is from Vryburg and we studied in Potch, so he didn't quite know what he was getting himself into. but i must admit, he can be a bit of a pushover sometimes. he did the technical test at BBD, and that was definitely not just putting a loop together
I think things have slowed down a bit recently for our company, because business dropped off and we got acquired. But I know that in quite a few interviews I went to, the people interviewed just did not have a clue. Like senior devs unable to write for loops. Or who can not define polymorphism. This is not people straight out of college, these are supposed to be experienced professionals. Yes, most of them were more than likely lying.
Anyway, if you are thinking of lying, dont do it. 100% of inteviews that I have been to, in 6 years, have had a technical test. I've been to probably around 15 interviews in that time, or more. Every single one, with no exceptions, had a technical test. If you lie, they will catch you.
However, if you have basic programming skills, and understand basic OO concepts, as well as some data modelling, you really shouldnt struggle. I always joke with the other senior dev that it says a lot that our interviews are generally only about the basics - few people know enough to be quizzed on the more advanced topics, even those who claim to be senior.
Anyway, if you are thinking of lying, dont do it. 100% of inteviews that I have been to, in 6 years, have had a technical test. I've been to probably around 15 interviews in that time, or more. Every single one, with no exceptions, had a technical test. If you lie, they will catch you.
However, if you have basic programming skills, and understand basic OO concepts, as well as some data modelling, you really shouldnt struggle. I always joke with the other senior dev that it says a lot that our interviews are generally only about the basics - few people know enough to be quizzed on the more advanced topics, even those who claim to be senior.
I work with Python which is still a very small niche field in SA but even in the broader fields I've noticed a lot of talk about skill shortage but little in way of real desire to get acquire those skills from companies.
I could be wrong though.
Err.. Put your CV on PNet as a Java developer, guarantee you'll get calls by tomorrow morning, bright and early. Many calls...
Recruiter: "Whats Python?"
icyrus: "More advanced version of Java. Newer version. Since 2012."
Recruiter" "Great. How many years of experience do you have with that?"
icryrus: "5."
recruiter: "Wow I think I have some great opportunities lined up for you!"
icyrus: "More advanced version of Java. Newer version. Since 2012."
Recruiter" "Great. How many years of experience do you have with that?"
icryrus: "5."
recruiter: "Wow I think I have some great opportunities lined up for you!"
Frikkenator
Expert Member
I actually wanted to write a same kind of post today, these ads are ridiculous. See example.
Why oh why would you need experience in all of those? If you are really good in one language, you should be able to pick up any other language relatively quickly.
We're currently looking for developers. As we're a startup, with limited funds, I need people who I can throw anything at and they'll be able to figure it out with relative ease. And that is exactly what good developers can do. How you put that into words though, is a different story.
EDIT: While on the topic, why does every single job ad for a developer say that you need a degree. I don't give a rats arse whether you have a degree or not, as long as you can do the job. I myself don't have a degree, but I've been programming since I was 6. (My dad is programmer and taught me). So does this then mean that you would rather take someone fresh out of varsity over someone with loads of experience? For me, in this field, experience beats education by about 4 to 1.
Why oh why would you need experience in all of those? If you are really good in one language, you should be able to pick up any other language relatively quickly.
We're currently looking for developers. As we're a startup, with limited funds, I need people who I can throw anything at and they'll be able to figure it out with relative ease. And that is exactly what good developers can do. How you put that into words though, is a different story.
EDIT: While on the topic, why does every single job ad for a developer say that you need a degree. I don't give a rats arse whether you have a degree or not, as long as you can do the job. I myself don't have a degree, but I've been programming since I was 6. (My dad is programmer and taught me). So does this then mean that you would rather take someone fresh out of varsity over someone with loads of experience? For me, in this field, experience beats education by about 4 to 1.
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@Frikkenator:
There is no doubt that experience counts a lot. I have met 2 types of people without degrees. The first is the kind that knows a hell of a lot and doesn't need a degree (one such person works in our company and I have immense respect for his abilities). The second kind doesn't have the principles correct and think they know what they are doing but are sadly mistaken.
The problem is every tom, dick & harry wants to be a programmer because it pays well. Let me explain why it is a problem for those companies to hire people without degrees:
1) If the person cannot do their job, the Department of Labour dictates you must train said individual. Firing someone for under performance is enormously difficult. In fact firing for anything but misconduct is incredibly difficult. I've seen it in our company where employee plays games, doesn't show up for work, etc. It was a drawn out court case to get rid of this individual. In the end the company gave him a package to leave, they didn't even fire him because the legal costs are just too much as he was fighting every step.
2) Companies with complex applications need their programmers to understand certain principles like the order of magnitude, how some basic mathematical problems are solved and when to use which algorithm and which data structure. For most companies this isn't a must, but there are companies that need it.
3) Even IF you hire an employee on very strict probation on a short contract to assess their skills, terminating the contract can still be tricky.
4) Hiring an employee is an expensive proposition. Recruiters need to be paid, HR need to scan through hundreds of applications and interviews need to be done which means the company is LOSING money looking for employees.
If a person has a degree from certain Universities, you are getting some kind of guarantee they know at least something.
Someone without a degree, you need to look carefully at their experience. With which companies, how long, references, etc.
Lastly people without degrees get paid less, simple as that. The R100k I paid for my degree was an incredible investment and easily paid for itself in a year.
So if you can get a degree, I would say rather do it.
My 2c.
There is no doubt that experience counts a lot. I have met 2 types of people without degrees. The first is the kind that knows a hell of a lot and doesn't need a degree (one such person works in our company and I have immense respect for his abilities). The second kind doesn't have the principles correct and think they know what they are doing but are sadly mistaken.
The problem is every tom, dick & harry wants to be a programmer because it pays well. Let me explain why it is a problem for those companies to hire people without degrees:
1) If the person cannot do their job, the Department of Labour dictates you must train said individual. Firing someone for under performance is enormously difficult. In fact firing for anything but misconduct is incredibly difficult. I've seen it in our company where employee plays games, doesn't show up for work, etc. It was a drawn out court case to get rid of this individual. In the end the company gave him a package to leave, they didn't even fire him because the legal costs are just too much as he was fighting every step.
2) Companies with complex applications need their programmers to understand certain principles like the order of magnitude, how some basic mathematical problems are solved and when to use which algorithm and which data structure. For most companies this isn't a must, but there are companies that need it.
3) Even IF you hire an employee on very strict probation on a short contract to assess their skills, terminating the contract can still be tricky.
4) Hiring an employee is an expensive proposition. Recruiters need to be paid, HR need to scan through hundreds of applications and interviews need to be done which means the company is LOSING money looking for employees.
If a person has a degree from certain Universities, you are getting some kind of guarantee they know at least something.
Someone without a degree, you need to look carefully at their experience. With which companies, how long, references, etc.
Lastly people without degrees get paid less, simple as that. The R100k I paid for my degree was an incredible investment and easily paid for itself in a year.
So if you can get a degree, I would say rather do it.
My 2c.
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Frikkenator
Expert Member
@Gnome
You make a couple of very valid points, I think it may also be easier to show people the door after their interview by pointing to the insane list of requirements if you don't like them.
The only problem is I've worked with guys who have got degrees and are completely useless. But in general I think you're right.
I don't completely agree on getting paid more though, I do think your starting salary will be considerable more, but once you prove your worth without a degree, I've found there isn't much of a difference. You see it worked like this for me, I started working for R3k. Within 2 years though, I was earning more than 5x that, which doubled again in the 2 years following. So if you know your stuff, you can be at quite a good salary after working for the 4 years it takes to get a degree, and no one's gonna pay a fresh graduate that amount. It was insanely hard work though, but all worth it. Then off course I decided to leave employment and went back to zero, but that's a different story.
Moral of the story, finding good developers is not a fun exercise. Fortunately I've built up some contacts over the years and will try find devs through them first.
You make a couple of very valid points, I think it may also be easier to show people the door after their interview by pointing to the insane list of requirements if you don't like them.
The only problem is I've worked with guys who have got degrees and are completely useless. But in general I think you're right.
I don't completely agree on getting paid more though, I do think your starting salary will be considerable more, but once you prove your worth without a degree, I've found there isn't much of a difference. You see it worked like this for me, I started working for R3k. Within 2 years though, I was earning more than 5x that, which doubled again in the 2 years following. So if you know your stuff, you can be at quite a good salary after working for the 4 years it takes to get a degree, and no one's gonna pay a fresh graduate that amount. It was insanely hard work though, but all worth it. Then off course I decided to leave employment and went back to zero, but that's a different story.
Moral of the story, finding good developers is not a fun exercise. Fortunately I've built up some contacts over the years and will try find devs through them first.
Yeah I think a degree allows a poor programmer to become mediocre, but the lack of, or presence of a degree will not stop a skilled programmer.
That being said, there are some jobs for which a degree is really advantageous - this is usually where the domain in which you are programming requires good mathematical and/or financial understanding. Not that you cant learn the maths on the job, its just easier if you have been exposed to more advanced mathematics in university.
@Frikkenator
The NON-NEGOTIABLE part is the funny part there! As a matter of fact, I have experience in all of those things, but that doesnt mean I would hire me to do a job involving Linux, for instance. Not that I couldnt relearn it on the job, its just not where my skills are at the moment. So its hilariously wrong.
There should be a... society or something, to which a recruiter needs to belong. Certification in that society should require that a recruiter pass an exam about the software development industry. So a recruiter who is certified with the AOLUR (Association of Less Useless Recruiters) would be more likely to know the difference between C++ and C#, or what experience really means, etc etc etc.
Then companies could put up a banner on their site saying they will only deal with AOLUR certified recruiters, in order to filter out the idiots.
That being said, there are some jobs for which a degree is really advantageous - this is usually where the domain in which you are programming requires good mathematical and/or financial understanding. Not that you cant learn the maths on the job, its just easier if you have been exposed to more advanced mathematics in university.
@Frikkenator
The NON-NEGOTIABLE part is the funny part there! As a matter of fact, I have experience in all of those things, but that doesnt mean I would hire me to do a job involving Linux, for instance. Not that I couldnt relearn it on the job, its just not where my skills are at the moment. So its hilariously wrong.
There should be a... society or something, to which a recruiter needs to belong. Certification in that society should require that a recruiter pass an exam about the software development industry. So a recruiter who is certified with the AOLUR (Association of Less Useless Recruiters) would be more likely to know the difference between C++ and C#, or what experience really means, etc etc etc.
Then companies could put up a banner on their site saying they will only deal with AOLUR certified recruiters, in order to filter out the idiots.
Frikkenator
Expert Member
Hahahahaha! I would support AOLUR all the way! 
Yea... non-negotiable my arse. All that means, is that you don't really know what you need the dev for, and so you want to get someone who can do everything... for R25k. Oh well, what can you do... except maybe spur on AOLUR!
Yea... non-negotiable my arse. All that means, is that you don't really know what you need the dev for, and so you want to get someone who can do everything... for R25k. Oh well, what can you do... except maybe spur on AOLUR!
Was this interview with HR?
raesteyn
Well-Known Member
I feel your frustration... when job hunting I honestly lose all my vigor. Search for a web dev job, get a list with 20 different technologies - obviously I am searching for the wrong thing, maybe I am not a web developer, I only work with php, js, html, css, xml, java and mysql.
Try web designer, need a degree... I am self taught so only only have a few comptia certs, scjp cert and real world experience - I am only proficiant in flash, photoshop and fireworks + the above coding skills. Guess I am not one of those either.
Lamp experience... I use wamp... dont fit in with those guys, good understanding of ftp, sftp etc... I have an A+, Network+ and Security+ so it could be me but wait - I need 2 to 3 years experience and a degree... I only have 5 years
Apply for a job at an agency I hear about via word of mouth, dont get paid nearly my market value (it is PE after all) but in the interview - I meet all the requirements? WTF JOB POSTERS!!
Try web designer, need a degree... I am self taught so only only have a few comptia certs, scjp cert and real world experience - I am only proficiant in flash, photoshop and fireworks + the above coding skills. Guess I am not one of those either.
Lamp experience... I use wamp... dont fit in with those guys, good understanding of ftp, sftp etc... I have an A+, Network+ and Security+ so it could be me but wait - I need 2 to 3 years experience and a degree... I only have 5 years
Apply for a job at an agency I hear about via word of mouth, dont get paid nearly my market value (it is PE after all) but in the interview - I meet all the requirements? WTF JOB POSTERS!!
d0b33
Honorary Master
Recruiters really, most don't have a clue...