Canon 5D Mark iii

@fvdbergh

She likes general photography - mostly in an art-like way.

Macro photography
Stills (very arty!!!)
Nature photos at any given level of light
Wildlife photos
People (yup - last on the list)

She is not that big into action photos, but obviously with the equipment we have, we should be able to cope with any action photo we want to take

It's not like she has specific problems with specific low light photograph - it is more general. She would love to take photo's of our baby without using the flash.

She has coped with the a cheap tripod for longer exposures, but what a schleb to set up. In darker environments, she used the flash often enough, but to me that really "flattens" a photo - to me it takes away natural depth (hope you understand what I am trying to say

Thanks for the additional info.

My recommendation of buying a 35 mm prime still stands. It is one of my favourite lenses for babies and toddlers. If you combine this with remote triggers on the flash (and bounce flash), you should be able to get rid of all the low-light noise without the flat flash look. On its own the f/1.8 aperture will already help a lot, but it always helps if you can take control the light (by using a flash, for example).

You could also consider the Sigma 30 mm f/1.4 (both the old one and the new one).

I happen l know the frustrations of a cheap tripod. Definitely consider investing in a good one (which could easily set you back R5k), but you'll have do a bit of homework to find the right one for your needs.

Read the strobist blog (Google it). This will give you some great ideas on how to use a flash in such a way that it becomes part your creative process to shape the photo, rather than merely a band-aid to fix up low light. The flat look can be avoided completely.

Just to mix things up again: the 6D will be a good match for the types of photography you have described, just remember that you have many other options that are complimentary/incremental, and more affordable.
 
Thanks fvdbergh (and all other responses). I will take all the info in consideration, do some more homework and make a decision.

Sigma 60-300mm 1:4-5.6 APO DG - presume you mean 70-300? Not sure if that one is EF or EF-s
Tamron SP 10-24mm 1:3.5-4.5 Di II - EF-s - the mount might physically fit an EF body but there will be severe vignetting if so.
Sigma 70mm 1:2.8 DG Macro EX - EF lens so you can use that with both types.
I took all the lenses to P&G (where I bought them) and the guys told me ask the lenses except the Canon lense, are EF mount. I will do some more research.
 
I haven't read through the entire thread yet since I'm short on time right now and will edit this post later, but what I'd do having skimmed thusfar;

* Used 60D at around R6.5k - if you're lucky you'll pick one up with a grip and extra battery for R7k or so.
* Used Sigma 30mm f/1.4 prime at around R4k (not a 50mm, since it's a crop camera and 50mm can more often than not be too tight for practical indoor usage)
* Flash cable at around R150, seeing as you have a flash cable or using the 60D's flash commander functionality to control your flash. Depending on the settings you're using, the popup flash may not show up in the resulting photo all that much at all, and so mightn't present undesirable results. Otherwise, make something to diffuse it with or simply use the remote cable.

You can consider getting electronic extension tubes for macro usage at this point. If I recall, you should be able to achieve a roughly 1:1 reproduction ratio on average using a 28mm tube on a 30mm lens, and retain AF and aperture control with this method while not exposing the rear element of your lens. A Canon one will set you back R1k while a Kenko automatic tube set will be around the same and include three different sizes (that can be stacked).

Also, Sigma lenses are crop-only if they have 'DC' in their name. If they don't, they're compatible with crop and full-frame.

The bigger concern with using crop-only lenses on full-frame bodies tends to be the mirror hitting the rear element. On some crop-only lenses this won't happen, you'll just begin seeing the inside of the barrel instead. An example of a FF-capable lens is the Tokina 11-16mm ATX etc etc f/2.8 lenses, which can be fitted to a full-frame body, but by the time you zoom down to 12mm you're seeing a lot of the inside of the barrel.

*edit* Okay, having read through now, it appears you guys need to first assess what it is that you want out of your new equipment and to understand what you'd be getting for what you'd have to pay.

I recently handled a 1100D, and noticed immediately that in terms of its controls, it's drastically more frustrating to use from a 'semi-manual' viewpoint than just using it on one of the auto modes. The 'ISO' button near the shutter by default controls the popup flash, as there's no dedicated flash button aside from that one. One can set that button to act as the ISO button instead, but then you have to put your flash popup somewhere else.

On the friend's 1100D I was handling, I did manage to set up a control layout that allows for more efficient control of the body in general, but it's still significantly more cumbersome to use than any triple-digit body and significantly more annoying to use than a double-digit or greater body.

If your requirements primarily lie in getting better photos of your baby, I'd go with the suggestion of getting some remote triggers and using the flash off-camera. Your baby will eventually get so used to it that they'll completely ignore it, and if not it could make for some interesting photos if they want to play with the flash instead. At least until they get bored of the flash and finally ignore it.

For macro use, I now understand you actually have that Sigma 70mm macro lens already, so you don't need extension tubes, just a way to better light your subject. The 60D and 7D can control a 430 EX II using the popup flash as I mentioned above, while the 6D can't since it has no popup flash.


If push comes to shove, a 6D would definitely be a great upgrade for her in terms of the high-iso usage. I still don't get why it is, but all Canon's EF lenses seem to also perform better on full-frame bodies, too, so even if you get a potato like the 28-135mm for a 6D, it's still going to (arguably) perform comparably to, say, a 15-85mm would on the 60D or 7D. This while being a relatively cheap lens you can pick up for around R2.3k or so used as a stopgap until she can warrant getting a 24-105mm.

Your Tamron ultrawide zoom (which is crop-only - the P&G guys dun goofed) can be sold used for around R4k if it's in good condition, which will cover replacing it with a Canon 17-40mm f/4L, which with a filter offers you a weather sealed-platform of the 17-40mm + 6D. Otherwise you could use the money towards a 24-105mm f/4L or at least to get a 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM and 50mm f/1.8 for the 6D.

Then at some point she can replace the Sigma telezoom with, say, a Canon 70-200mm f/4L IS USM (the expensoov one), which is again weather-sealed, and eventually the 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, which is again weather sealed. Good f/4 constant aperture kit that'll last her very long, unless something really magical happens in the photographic equipment world that means you absolutely HAVE to go out and buy those new goodies for her.


So tl;dr, at this point I'd almost say to cave and go for a 6D and a 28-135mm. As bwana's pointed out, being able to use a higher ISO is often more important than being 'forced to' use a wider aperture, since you may find yourself at an event where you want to get more people in focus, but can't use a flash (or it simply wouldn't be practical/make enough of a difference), and could then push the ISO to make up for the lack of light. Based on the testing I've done thusfar, a 6D can easily provide as good as, if not better, noise performance than a 550D/60D/7D shooting at ISO800 when shooting at ISO12800. That's 800-1600-3200-6400-12800, so 4 stops more effective light, which with the one stop less of DoF from using full-frame means an effective 3-stop improvement.

Keeping this in mind, consider that on the crop body, for roughly equivalent noise performance you would be using a f/1.4 aperture, whether a 24, 28, 35, 50 or w/e mm lens.

The kicker is that on the 6D, you can use a 50mm f/1.8, which as you probably know by now, is a relatively inexpensive lens, and it'll provide you with the equivalent field of view that a ~30mm lens would on a Canon crop body - so if you really need to use a higher aperture lens, at least you have a wider field of view to work with without having to spend the R5k or so that a Sigma 30mm f/1.4 costs.

You're also not then restricted to your crop-body 50mm equivalent lens for low-light shooting, since your body's higher ISO capability can make up for the loss of aperture, allowing you to use the entire 28 (17.5mm) to 135 (84.5mm) range the lens offers as a zoom lens.


Oh, and if you end up deciding to simply go for a triple-digit body, I might be willing to part with my 500D+grip+2x batteries for R5.5k. *cough*
 
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You guys are all awesome with the help provided. Sincerely, thank you for confusing the crap out of me... :p

I started off looking at the 5D Mark iii, but quickly decided against it because of price and lense upgrades being full frame vs the cropped lenses have.

I am still leaning towards my 2nd choice, the 6D, but eventually have to upgrade all the lenses as described above. It will be costly, but in due course it could be well worth while with arguably the best low light features any camera has to offer.

Now if I allow sanity to prevail, I should probably rather look at either the 60D or the 7D. if I understand the specs and review on dpreview correctly, then the 60D is the obvious choice since these two cameras look extremely close on paper. By going for either one though, leaves quite a bit of cash for investing in lenses/equipment with the added benefit that the 1000D can always remain as a backup when required since both can use the cropped lenses and flash. Both the 7D and 60D are rumoured to get upgrades soon which could (a) drop the price of the current units even lower, or (b) not be too much more expensive with new/better hardware/features.

Fortunately I am not in a rush, so I have plenty of time to listen to you clever people and looking at various options.
 
If push comes to shove, a 6D would definitely be a great upgrade for her in terms of the high-iso usage. I still don't get why it is, but all Canon's EF lenses seem to also perform better on full-frame bodies

Depends on how you are measuring performance. Things like lateral chromatic aberration measured on the edge of a crop-sensor can be quite different from chromatic aberration on the edge of the full-frame sensor. Obviously, the chromatic aberration is still there in the full-frame image, but not at the position from where the image quality sample crop is shown.

The most significant factor, though, is the effective magnification difference between the crop sensor and the full-frame sensor. Consider that the chromatic aberration is expressed as a lateral (radial, in this case) shift between the red and the blue channels; we can measure the magnitude of the shift in micron. Let us say it comes down to about 10 micron at a specific position in the focal plane (this will be at the same radial distance from the centre of the lens, regardless of whether we are using the full-frame or the crop sensor).

If you make an A3 print of both photos (full-frame vs crop) of your test chart, then the effective magnification of your crop sensor is ~18x, and the full frame ~11.5x. Your 10 micron lateral chromatic aberration thus becomes 0.18 mm vs 0.115 mm in the A3 prints. Depending on your viewing distance, this may mean that the chromatic aberration is visible in the A3 print from the crop sensor, but not in the A3 print of the full-frame sensor. The same argument applies to viewing the images at 100% magnification on screen.

The exact same effect happens to lens resolution, i.e., the resolution of the lens is fixed (and expressed in line pairs per mm in the focal plane, for example), but since you are magnifying the crop sensor image by a larger factor to get the same print size, your lens will definitely look less sharp. You can verify this by looking at the peak lens resolution across different formats: lenses designed for smaller sensors (i.e., m4/3) achieve higher resolutions (expressed as line pairs per mm) than lenses designed for full-frame sensors. Essentially, you *require* sharper lenses for smaller sensors if you want to achieve the same sharpness in, say, A3 prints.

There is also a more subtle effect: the crop-sensor would require a larger focus distance for the same field of view as the full-frame sensor. This implies that you are not really testing the lens under the same conditions (between crop and full-frame), unless you use two different size test charts. Either way, this should actually be to the crop sensor's advantage, so this influence could not really be all that large.
 
As far as I'm aware, the-digital-picutre, DXOMark and dpreview all use differently sized targets based on the effective focal length (35mm equivalent) they're working with.

Additionally, I was referring virtually exclusively to the perceptual difference in 'equivalent' usage of lenses for a given part of the frame. After all, a FF-oriented lens like the 28-135mm's corners may be terrible on a FF camera and have that terribleness cancelled out by being used on a crop camera, but this doesn't negate the apparent visual quality degradation presented by sample images.

Though, again, I only say that these are 'apparent' improvements. I've only had extremely limited exposure to full-frame bodies in terms of taking shots with one with a lens I'm familiar with alongside my 500D using the same lens to be able to compare with. What's important to note, though, is that -though there is still a significant difference in relative pixel size- the examples I listed in my post compare a 1Ds Mk III to a 50D. That's a 22mp FF body vs a 15mp crop body. The results shown in the TDP pages are of 100% crops, so even taking that into account, one is gaining higher resolution as well as higher fidelity images. Apparently.
 
So I finally decided to get the 60D. Working away from home, I phoned my wife last night and told her about my decision. I was going on about how much of an improvement it is over the 1000D and we can keep the lenses and I was really being all exited ... and then a tinkle of urine on my batteries when she said "But the 6D is nicer - I thought we are getting the 6D and then replace lenses over a period of time until we are completely full frame". So after a couple of phone calls this morning, I have a 6D with 24mm-105mm lens waiting for me at Canon to pick up on Friday.
 
So I finally decided to get the 60D. Working away from home, I phoned my wife last night and told her about my decision. I was going on about how much of an improvement it is over the 1000D and we can keep the lenses and I was really being all exited ... and then a tinkle of urine on my batteries when she said "But the 6D is nicer - I thought we are getting the 6D and then replace lenses over a period of time until we are completely full frame". So after a couple of phone calls this morning, I have a 6D with 24mm-105mm lens waiting for me at Canon to pick up on Friday.

Ultimately, camera gear is bought with the heart, not the mind ... :)
 
So I finally decided to get the 60D. Working away from home, I phoned my wife last night and told her about my decision. I was going on about how much of an improvement it is over the 1000D and we can keep the lenses and I was really being all exited ... and then a tinkle of urine on my batteries when she said "But the 6D is nicer - I thought we are getting the 6D and then replace lenses over a period of time until we are completely full frame". So after a couple of phone calls this morning, I have a 6D with 24mm-105mm lens waiting for me at Canon to pick up on Friday.

I have the 60D, and I love it, but you probably made the right choice :) Your wife is a master manipulator though :twisted: :p
 
So I finally decided to get the 60D. Working away from home, I phoned my wife last night and told her about my decision. I was going on about how much of an improvement it is over the 1000D and we can keep the lenses and I was really being all exited ... and then a tinkle of urine on my batteries when she said "But the 6D is nicer - I thought we are getting the 6D and then replace lenses over a period of time until we are completely full frame". So after a couple of phone calls this morning, I have a 6D with 24mm-105mm lens waiting for me at Canon to pick up on Friday.

Well, look at the bright side.
 
Ultimately, camera gear is bought with the heart, not the mind ... :)
Yeah ... with the heart ... I heavily leaned towards it

I have the 60D, and I love it, but you probably made the right choice :) Your wife is a master manipulator though :twisted: :p
Oh yeah!!! But the added benefit is I will be hogging it for periods of time!

Well, look at the bright side.
I am - I am really looking forward to picking it up Friday and start playing

Again - thanks to all you guys for the assistance here.
 
Nice - nothing beats that new camera smell. :)
 
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