Stem Cells FTW!

[Phronesis]

Ok i got the words wrong, but my understanding ist still completely intact

Egg= Ovum (what i though was called an embryo)
EmbryO is what i thought was called a Egg

I did say before here that i didn't take up biology.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=1088453#post1088453

Ok, fair enough. Just remember, an embryo is a fertilized egg and has the capability to develop consciousness and become part of the human race. An egg does not have that capability on its own, and eggs are used for research purposes in vitro. Eggs can and do become fertilized in vitro, and there is research (in this country, albeit on bovine and other non-human embryos) on these embryonic cells. And in assisted reproduction clinics, many failed in vitro fertilization attempt do happen, but once the process is underway and succesful, it should be left. No-one should ever view ANY child as a burden.

Still this does not change anything. An Embryo still doesn't have a conscious.

But it has the potential to become one if left unhindered.

Nun's don't have egg - cells?

Yes, if there is not anything wrong with them, they should have.

Nun's still have the potential to create life, just as the embroys have. Stages don't matter.

The stages do make the difference. An egg will NEVER become a human on its own, an embryo in the womb WILL become a human if development is successful and left unhindered.

 

[Phronesis]

But why should it matter if it does has the capability or not.

It's still up for you to decide.

It really doesn't matter at all, what the cells potential is.

Because once the process of development starts, it HAS the capability and potential to become a conscious being. It makes all the difference. An egg or a sperm will NEVER on its own have the capability or potential to develop into a conscious being. It only has the potential to fuse with an egg, and ONLY once it has, will the embryo have the capability to become a human, if in the womb. I am not sure what you are going for here. Should women be laboratories that grow embryos? Common labs can do this, so I don't see any women in the future choosing FOR this.
Or are you pushing that ALL women should have a choice to donate their eggs for research?
What is it?

Potentiality is not actuality, and actuality is what matters. average man has billions of sperm, each of which may have had the potential to create a child too, but they can't as they are either killed off by the immune system everyday, or spilled on the floor.Well then they are wasting, just as you said... potential life.

No, as repeatedly stated, an egg is haploid, and on its own will never have the potential to become a human.

You can't claim to steal and break a car that hasn't been manufactured yet, just because you hit the pause button on the production line while the car was nothing more than a few bolts.

So what are the bolts in this analogy. An egg or an embryo?

Stages don't matter either. The only stage that matters, is when the fetus develops consciousness, sentient, and not just a reflex reaction either.

No, once the process is underway, meaning once fertilization has occured in the womb, that embroy HAS the potential to become a human, unlike a single egg, or a single sperm.

Question to you: What really matters, Actuality or Potentiality?

Both actually matters.
Embryo in the womb = Actual potentiality
It matters, and should never be viewed as a burden.
Sperm and eggs on their own will never have the potentiality to develop into a human. Some form of intervention is needed. What people want to do with their eggs and sperm... their business.

I am actually not sure what you understand about embryonic stem cell research and what your stance is. Please lay it out clearly as to what you object to. At present, my understanding is that you seem to want to rip embryos from womb for research purposes. This I would argue is totally unnecessary in the first place as there are other avenues for research.

 

[Phronesis]

say two people are having sex, if one pulls out too soon, then spills on the floor, are they murders?

Of course, having sex is also an actual potentiality, but they pulled out too soon.

Should that be considered Murder?

No, why would one argue that?

Actual potentiality, certainly does not mean Actuality of consciousness. Actuality of consciousness is the ONLY thing that matters.

No, the potential of an embryo to gain consciousness and contribute to society matters equally.

potentiality is completely irrelevant if the child is not to be born.

Not to be born? Who makes that decision on the future of a future consciousness. Myopic thinking?

 

[Phronesis]

Just another stage, it's just like the embryo stage. both mean the same potential as to steps.

No it does not. As soon as a sperm and an egg fuses, the developmental program kicks in and that embryo WILL become a human if the process is unhindered and successful. Once it starts, it will have an end.
Spermatogenesis is also a process, but it won't end in a human being. You can stop it (vasectomy) if you want, you won't prevent a developing human being from becoming part of society though.

Again, the embyro doesn't have a consciousness, at this point in time, and if you stop it, it won't have one. It is not a life as we are. period.

But you are denying the developmental program to run its course to become a human. You are unnecessarily cutting short the development of a human being.

Potentiality would not matter.

Of course it matters. If you arbitrarily draw the line with consciousness, you are going to have to be very clear what it is and strictly adhere to that definition. I would argue that once the developmental program kicks in, it has the potential to become a human being that can contribute to society and that should never be seen as a liability.

And in most cases what comes doesn't even contribute to society, and will suffer more too. When a life which could have contributed, and didn't have to suffer could have been born in the place.

Unfortunately this statement relies on some form of clarvoyence to judge beforehand which individuals will and won't contribute to society. We are more than the product of our genes and memes and every person has the potential to contribute to society.

WE DO!

it(consciousness) and entity does not exist. And if you stop the embryo, it won't exist, and you can't kill something that doesn't exist.

The embryo with the developmental program that has the capacity to develop into a conscious human being exists (if in womb). It should not be seen as a burden. Science have other avenues for obtaining embryonic (pluripotent cells).

I still do not understand your point of view as to why you would want to rip an embryo out of the womb of a mother.

Please clarify.

 

[Phronesis]

A little more about stem cells.
What’s Good For The Mouse Is Good For The Monkey: Skin Cells Reprogrammed Into Stem Cells

ScienceDaily (Dec. 3, 2008) — Scientists have successfully created the first induced pluripotent stem (iPS) cell lines from adult monkey skin cells. The research, published by Cell Press in the December issue of the journal Cell Stem Cell, demonstrates that the method of direct reprogramming is conserved among species and may be useful for creation of clinically valuable primate models for human diseases.

Stem Cells FAQ.

 

[bigicy]

When are they going to start cloning people?

 

[nauseous_monkey]

When are they going to start cloning people?

I read somewhere that they were capable of doing it scientifically, or at least playing around with it, but ethically is was a grey area. I don't know.