The elegant universe

[Phronesis]

Put it to you this way, we don't find birds underwater. Why? it just doesn't work for them.

Penguins?

Any animal that woke up one day and thought to itself "Hey, I'll start walking backwards" walked right into a lion's mouth(or any other of it's predators).

Well that depends on the fitness landscape. Stick insects in many cases preferentially walk backwards.

You don't see the universe going around trying to make things easier for them to survive.

Molecular autonomous agents adapting towards a condition. Simple really.

The universe was here first, so if we want to occupy it, we have to abide by it's rules. We are built to survive in the universe

In a nutshell, evolution.

And with it came a fitness landscape and the emergence of evolutionary algorithms (DNA code, optimal machinery, preadaptations etc.) to probe that fitness landscape. Evolutionary algorithms with pre-existing fitness landscapes are generally biased towards a few endpoints or local optima. Want to venture a guess where we are on the evolutionary fitness landscape?

BTW, I agree that we are built to survive in the universe. I also think we are built to understand and probe the intracies of the place we inhabit and that our cognitive faculties are built to be reliable to gain wisdom and understand truth.

Only to people who don't understand probability theory. But knock yourself out.

Yeah, knock yourself out.

 

[grayston]

Yeah, knock yourself out.

Conclusions: we are either 1) special, 2) part of a multiverse or 3) made by God.

Man. Even Christians only think there's a 33% chance we were made by God!

 

[battletoad]

Penguins?

They evolved due to the universe's constraints, they lost their feathers coz it didn't help them underwater, ie the universe didn't change it's rules to accommodate them

Molecular autonomous agents adapting towards a condition. Simple really.

a condition brought about by the universe, but i bet this'll start a debate.

And with it came a fitness landscape and the emergence of evolutionary algorithms (DNA code, optimal machinery, preadaptations etc.) to probe that fitness landscape. Evolutionary algorithms with pre-existing fitness landscapes are generally biased towards a few endpoints or local optima. Want to venture a guess where we are on the evolutionary fitness landscape?

I have no idea what you are talking about (wrt fitness landscape). Supply link so's i can educate myself

BTW, I agree that we are built to survive in the universe. I also think we are built to understand and probe the intracies of the place we inhabit and that our cognitive faculties are built to be reliable to gain wisdom and understand truth.

psychologists would say schizophrenia lol! but ja where would we be now if this wasn't the case...

 

[Phronesis]

They evolved due to the universe's constraints, they lost their feathers coz it didn't help them underwater, ie the universe didn't change it's rules to accommodate them

Evolution kinda screwed up your assertion that we don't find birds underwater .

a condition brought about by the universe, but i bet this'll start a debate.

The universe gives rise to adaptive, teleological creatures? Wow, amazing, all by itself... Yep, another debate for another thread.

I have no idea what you are talking about (wrt fitness landscape). Supply link so's i can educate myself

Memetic Algorithms, Convergence and Pre-existing Fitness Landscapes

psychologists would say schizophrenia lol! but ja where would we be now if this wasn't the case...

Psychology...meh, what a soft, subjective "science".
Wonder what psychologists would say about the notion that we are built to survive by a thing that does not actually have the intentionality to build anything?

 

[battletoad]

Evolution kinda screwed up your assertion that we don't find birds underwater .

Well i was talking about "classical flying bird" and anyone would see that they will not be able to survive underwater, but interestingly enough penguins would prove evolution. Screwed up? In my opinion no

Memetic Algorithms, Convergence and Pre-existing Fitness Landscapes

HUGE article and i'm IMMENSELY lazy(btw which disciplines does this subject incorporate? <= evidence of my laziness). Thanks for the link tho, those science forums look very interesting

 

[Phronesis]

Well i was talking about "classical flying bird" and anyone would see that they will not be able to survive underwater, but interestingly enough penguins would prove evolution. Screwed up? In my opinion no

I think it would have sounded better if you said:
"Put it to you this way, we don't classical flying birds underwater."

But that would make the assertion a bit obvious and meaningless because classical flying birds were not designed (through whatever means) to spend large amounts of time underwater.

HUGE article and i'm IMMENSELY lazy(btw which disciplines does this subject incorporate? <= evidence of my laziness).

Molecular biology and evolution and evolutionary dynamics related to fitness landscapes. Will repost it here a bit later for it to be discussed.

Thanks for the link tho, those science forums look very interesting

Pleasure

 

[battletoad]

But that would make the assertion a bit obvious and meaningless because classical flying birds were not designed (through whatever means) to spend large amounts of time underwater...

...which would imply the assertion that the universe was made for us to be just as meaningless(before we go off at a tangent, i know your viewpoint is that we are built for the universe and not vice versa, this is for those who believe indeed it is the case). But ja bring on that other subject, an evolutionary debate will get the braincells flaring

 

[Phronesis]

Want life?

Earth-sized planets are just right for life

THE discovery of extrasolar super-Earths - rocky planets about five to ten times the mass of Earth - has raised hopes that some may harbour life. Perhaps it's a vain hope though, since it now seems that Earth is just the right size to sustain life.

Life is comfortable on Earth in part because of its relatively stable climate and its magnetic field, which deflects cosmic radiation capable of damaging organic molecules as well as producing amazing auroras (see right).

The long-term stability of Earth's climate depends on the way the planet's crust is broken up into plates, which continually slide over and under one another in a process called plate tectonics. Carbon scrubbed from the atmosphere by natural chemical reactions gets buried and recycled within the Earth because of plate tectonics, part of a cycle that stabilises atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations....

 

[rwenzori]

Is this the old "rare earth" argument?

 

[Phronesis]

I thought...
"Look, this is what science is discovering"

Have some straw.

 

[DJ...]

Penguins?

Now there's a case of either a stupid "designer" or evolution without intentionality. Well spotted, phrony...

 

[Phronesis]

Now there's a case of either a stupid "designer" or evolution without intentionality. Well spotted, phrony...

Is this the old "it looks badly designed, therefore it is a stupid design if it was designed" argument from ignorance you guys love to spout?

Penguins look pretty well adapted to their particular fitness landscape... why just like molecules that are intentionally docked into proteins using evolutionary algorithms...

 

[HapticSimian]

*waffle*

Ever heard of what is said about a room full of typewriters, monkeys and Shakespeare? Imagine if they had 13.7 billion years... some might even think they'd come up with a means to justify their existence.

Phrony, I'll admit that some of the things you post are interesting. But everything you trawl the web for is tainted by the underlying belief of there being some greater scheme to it all.

I still maintain your little covert circle-jerk group, the format of your posts and your penchant for spouting abuse dilutes what you are trying to get across.