Wel well well, now we know..!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Suffice to say, if you're predicting that SBC will go bankrupt, I highly doubt that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

True. But will telkom survive.

<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mbs</i>
<br />Ayn Rand was a great novelist, but her ideology of objectivism has been discredited by many philosophers, sociologists, political scientists and social commentators, due to its emphasis on the self and individualism, which in practical terms will devolve into the sacrifice of the common good, outright greed, and ultimately the breakdown of the individual, which cannot survive isolated from its social context. As a vehement anti-socialist, her doctrine of objectivism focusses on being contrary to anything even vaguely considered socialist, and cannot be considered as true capitalism. I believe that it is for this reason that capitalism in its present form as punted by the USA (which does incorporate many of the ideals espoused by her) is ultimately destined to fail, as social pressures grow and force change. A word to the wise: consider all inputs when operationalising, make continuous review a necessity, adjust accordingly, adhere to full transparency and consciously get closure on failure, else more 11/09's will occur. There are just too many dogmatic idiots out there who believe that imposing their will on others is the acceptable thing to do, including our own Telscum...
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200+ years and counting...

Socialism collapsed after less than 80.


Ayn Rand is my hero. I agree with basically everything she writes.

<font color="blue"><b>The clock is ticking................... <i>1,174 kb/s</i> - I brake for no one</b></font id="blue">
http://home.cogeco.ca/~johannj/net_stuff/cogeco.jpg
 
Jerrek, you're talking about "absolute" socialism (or close to it), while mbs is talking about a combination thereof.

I can assure you that "absolute" capitalism (of which there is no example, no, not even the USA is a purely capitalist society - there are basic services that are government and/or state mandated and controlled) would die just as quickly.

The reason?

Greed becomes paramount at both ends of the scale. Either it ends up with a governmental minority controlling everything and trying to hold on to that (to the detriment of society), or it ends up with a private minority controlling everything and trying to hold on to that (to the detriment of society and anyone who tries to compete with them).

In neither case does the public ever actually win, it's only if you listen to that oft-said saying "all in moderation" and understand that if you maintain a balance between socialist and capitalist ideals (our government is far more socialist than capitalist unfortunately - they like to hold on to "big business" such as Telkom) you end up with a far more competitive and open environment.
 
Well said, Tharaxis. The point I was trying to make is that dogmatic adherence to a particular ideology merely causes the growth of opposing viewpoints and competing ideologies, given the nature of the human animal. This is the fundamental failure of Ayn Rand's approach, which espouses the idea of "the ideal man, man as he could be and ought to be.” Her idea of the "ideal man" is a "heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."

In essence there's nothing wrong with this, but it is merely a sub-set of what we really are - you ignore the rest at your peril. For example, whilst we're naturally gregarious and inevitably collaborate for the 'common good', our inherent pack mentality usually causes in-fighting to achieve 'leader-of-the-pack' status, with the strongest surviving only until such time as rise of someone stronger, or until inherent weakness causes the strongest to succumb. This is a very simplistic analogy and could be viewed as somewhat naive, but evidentiary support for this exists in many contexts. Methinks the same thing occurs in the boardroom context for many companies, including the likes of SBC and Telkom. Ultimately, however, there will always be pressure from those willing to test and challenge the status quo, and blinkered dogma is eventually replaced by something else. This forum is a perfect example of such pressure, whether it is ultimately successful or not.

It is for this reason that sustained and successful management is usually characterised by an eclectic approach to both internal and external variables, whether it be the management of a country or state, a company or organisation, or even a family unit. As you noted, everything 'in moderation'. Bringing all of this back to the topic, it suffices to repeat that said by Ant - capitalism cannot survive without a social balance. Similarly, our telco environment should not be completely deregulated, as some regulation will remain necessary to preclude chaos. And concerning Whitacre, he is destined to take a fall as the current SBC 'strongman', witness all those corporate thieves being brought to book elsewhere - the same thing applies to our own local gravy train idiots...
 
All of you have some truth in what you say. As far as survival of one or the other ideology goes, it depends on more than just whether it is good for all or just one. Democracy is the big problem with the world today. The 3rd world (as a collective for those who lag behind at present) are getting more powerful purely on the basis of numbers. That is a very foolish way of looking at and dealing with future global issues. Somebody once said, never underestimate the power of stupid people in masses...

Now that may sound very derogatory, but the truth is that a new system of governance will have to be devised. One where the common good is balanced with the good of every living creature on this planet. Part of that responsibility is to make sure that the 3rd world is educated and developed. The 3rd world must also not be given a power that is disproportional to its capabilities or understanding...

Cheers




<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mbs</i>
<br />Well said, Tharaxis. The point I was trying to make is that dogmatic adherence to a particular ideology merely causes the growth of opposing viewpoints and competing ideologies, given the nature of the human animal. This is the fundamental failure of Ayn Rand's approach, which espouses the idea of "the ideal man, man as he could be and ought to be.” Her idea of the "ideal man" is a "heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."

In essence there's nothing wrong with this, but it is merely a sub-set of what we really are - you ignore the rest at your peril. For example, whilst we're naturally gregarious and inevitably collaborate for the 'common good', our inherent pack mentality usually causes in-fighting to achieve 'leader-of-the-pack' status, with the strongest surviving only until such time as rise of someone stronger, or until inherent weakness causes the strongest to succumb. This is a very simplistic analogy and could be viewed as somewhat naive, but evidentiary support for this exists in many contexts. Methinks the same thing occurs in the boardroom context for many companies, including the likes of SBC and Telkom. Ultimately, however, there will always be pressure from those willing to test and challenge the status quo, and blinkered dogma is eventually replaced by something else. This forum is a perfect example of such pressure, whether it is ultimately successful or not.

It is for this reason that sustained and successful management is usually characterised by an eclectic approach to both internal and external variables, whether it be the management of a country or state, a company or organisation, or even a family unit. As you noted, everything 'in moderation'. Bringing all of this back to the topic, it suffices to repeat that said by Ant - capitalism cannot survive without a social balance. Similarly, our telco environment should not be completely deregulated, as some regulation will remain necessary to preclude chaos. And concerning Whitacre, he is destined to take a fall as the current SBC 'strongman', witness all those corporate thieves being brought to book elsewhere - the same thing applies to our own local gravy train idiots...
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He who does not understand the value of war at the right time, cannot comprehend the value of life at any time - Anonymous
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The 3rd world must also not be given a power that is disproportional to its capabilities or understanding...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The west is quick to assume too much. They are leaps and bounds ahead of Africa, but sometimes view Africa using Capatilistic thinking. One can look at Mugabe to the North of us. Just about every african countries first government after democracy ends up with some sort of tyranny. Read this post. Ex Republica Forma Populare Tyrannis Oritur -Out of Democracy comes Tyranny.

I just hope and pray that South Africa doesnt lend itself to the same fate. The corruption is their already, but its our strong constitution that keeps us together. For the moment that is.


<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">
 
*frown* I'd rather we not interfere. It causes much hatred. Besides, who are WE to tell someone else, in his own country, how he should govern himself? We don't have a right to do that.

And I disagree that socialism is needed. It isn't.

<font color="blue"><b>The clock is ticking................... <i>1,174 kb/s</i> - I brake for no one</b></font id="blue">
http://home.cogeco.ca/~johannj/net_stuff/cogeco.jpg
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">*frown* I'd rather we not interfere. It causes much hatred. Besides, who are WE to tell someone else, in his own country, how he should govern himself? We don't have a right to do that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I take it you are refering to Mugabe and we should not interfere. Yes I agree, such a view is valid in a perfect world. But they are our neighbours and need our help.
Our government has given them heaps in aid already. Fuel, electricity etc to name a few. The trouble with this is we as citizens of SA are indirectly paying for a rogue government next door. Im all for charity etc. But it begins at home first. The situation in Zims is out of hand and their economy has fallen apart. All the top cronies in power have pocketed all the money the UK gave them for land distribution. And their isnt any change in sight either. And I personally work hard for my money, but I fail to see why I should prop up some loose cannons next door.
Yes take our charity, but then come right.
Besides the whole Zim Story is a nightmare. For example the 120 000 herd of cattle that took 100 plus years to breed has been reduced to 10% of that. The people are starving, and the people in power dont care. Zims was once the bread basket of Southern Africa. Its been reduced to mere blip on the map in the last 20 years through all the reasons we are aware of. Mugabe and his cronies lavish themselves in luxury while the country withers away and we foot the bill.

How can we not interfere?


<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by BTTB</i>
How can we not interfere?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

When the Roman Empire collapsed the Romans did not know it.
Historians defined the collapse some hundreds of years later.

The era of African chiefs (kings, dictators, despots call them what you like) has actually ended.
Only pity is many chiefs don't realise it and many people will die and suffer until the chiefs themselves pass on to the worms who will inevitably consume them.

The same applies to the "chiefs" at telkom and just like the Idi's of this world they will hold no respectable position in history still to be written.

So the one thing we can do is protest and persuade, convince and criticize and hope that some degree of wisdom enters the minds of the chiefs.
Kenneth Kaunda is a good example and it seems as if Gaddafi has seen the light as well.

Personally I think the future of Africa is bright - we have the right people,
we just have to wait for the chiefs to pass on - they will.
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Personally I think the future of Africa is bright - we have the right people,
we just have to wait for the chiefs to pass on - they will.
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Yes definitely. Only problem while we wait for these "chiefs" to pass on so might we. This is why I get so pissed at Corporations like telkom, while they ***** foot around life is fleeting by. Its just a pity that SA didnt take a stance like places like South Korea and used the Telekom network to push the nation forward.
To give you an example in SA. Trevor Manaul has removed all Import Taxatiion on PC components. Look how cheap PC components are now compared to a year ago. The Rand of course did help too. The theory behind this was to enable all SA Citizens in getting PC's. To make it affordable for all citizens, poor or rich alike. A very noble move from the ANC and I praise them for it. But now to really make this move work they should make their Telkom Monopoly pave the way for cheap Internet Connectivity for all. I mean like a Internet Revolution in SA. This is one way of creating opportunities for the masses. And I say the state should make this a priority. Kick some ass around in Telkom and if SBC doesnt want to toe the line, well you know what they can do, dont you.

Another 2c

<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">
 
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