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Nationalise the Mines
- Thread starter Gushesh
- Start date
VioAdmin
Expert Member
This part, I agree with Julius... NATIONALIZE IT ALL. This will be a big blow to the imperialist/colonizers from sucking the life out of this country in the future.
Venezuela is doing the EXACT same thing and of course those who oppose are direct affiliates of US/EU.
This will bring the money and flow directly in the hands of the people of SA instead of letting already rich countries and corporations control everything.
Excellent move, this must be done because Africa is going to be the key continent of resources in the very near future(it has already began).
No time for wasting, grow some balls and get it done.
Venezuela is doing the EXACT same thing and of course those who oppose are direct affiliates of US/EU.
This will bring the money and flow directly in the hands of the people of SA instead of letting already rich countries and corporations control everything.
Excellent move, this must be done because Africa is going to be the key continent of resources in the very near future(it has already began).
No time for wasting, grow some balls and get it done.
Wow, you are so ignorent of economics, moral philosophy, socialism, socialism throughout history, I actually don;t want to address you.
However people like you have a vote, and that is why you are so dangerous.
Explain to me, for example, how you plan to solve the socialist calculation problem.
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Flanders
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Back to your hole, stupid.
VioAdmin
Expert Member
And who do you think YOU are? You think I care about your opinion? What and who are you? What value to my life are you? I would rather sit down with a half-dead cockroach and blaze some trees with it than to address you.
So if you are going to start throwing jabs because your eFeelings have been hurt, that's on you but don't try to make yourself sound like you are a QUEEN/KING. You are not.
With that said...Nationalize it ALL, especially the banks. We have to control the money.
VioAdmin
Expert Member
Lol, don't hate me kid, hate the GAME.
If you don't understand what nationalizing is and how it can actually give the country much more control of it's resources and thus weaken the grip of the colonizers/imperalist, then it's time to google and youtube some sources or take a trip down to South America.
A good example is to look at how UK has used nationalization to their advantage, especially in terms of gas/oil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization#United_Kingdom
Once again, SA doesn't have to nationalize everything forever, it can be for a period of time...It all has to be strategic.
And look at Saudia Arabia, Nationalized their oil...Look how rich they are, look at mexico, with a GDP of over $800Billion, nationalized their oil as well, Libya as well.
It's time to grow a pair and get it done.
Shayd
Expert Member
Yes lets nationalize everything, lets ignore the fact that the economy of EVERY country that has nationalised has only gone backwards. Lets ignore the fact that the VAST majority of money made in the mining remains in the country.
The nationalisation debate is as stupid as the communism debate, we can argue it as much as we want. It doesn't work. And if anyone was dumb enough to enforce it you would have every person with any level of education leaving the country enmasse.
It's simple vioadmin. If you steal from any corporations, then the rest of the corporations will leave. And they will take their skilled employees with them. I wish you the best of luck running the most technically challenging mines in the world without the worlds best mining engineers.
I suppose you could consider bringing in the chinese but you will quickly find their way of doing business unpalatable.
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The nationalisation debate is as stupid as the communism debate, we can argue it as much as we want. It doesn't work. And if anyone was dumb enough to enforce it you would have every person with any level of education leaving the country enmasse.
It's simple vioadmin. If you steal from any corporations, then the rest of the corporations will leave. And they will take their skilled employees with them. I wish you the best of luck running the most technically challenging mines in the world without the worlds best mining engineers.
I suppose you could consider bringing in the chinese but you will quickly find their way of doing business unpalatable.
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VioAdmin
Expert Member
I understand your point(s)...but I am looking at the other angel of this. We can get it done. We are grown men and women here and we have to understand that a lot more corporations and companies will be coming to Africa in the next few years than ever before.[Africa and Asia]
With this said, we have to prepare ourselves and the best way right now is to nationalize. As I said, it doesn't have to be forever, it all has to be strategic. Google up the countries that have nationalzied some industries, you will see that the UK/US are some of the biggest 'nationalizers' on this earth, if not THE Biggest.
They know the game and we must follow it and make the adjustments to adapt to our way of life/system. People really need to understand the grip the EU has over SA. It's not a surprise why we have VodaCom/VodaFone here which is one of the biggest companies in the EU.
I don't consider it stealing, you can still allow private ownership in these industries, but they all have to be monitored. The companies will come, SA's economy is too big to pass. If they pass, another country will come in and accept the agreement.
It is better to do business with the Chinese than it is with US/EU.
Flanders
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'Kid'...that's rich.
Anyway, I watched this earlier on Carte Blanche and thought that Michael Spicer's metaphor was hilarious but totally relevent:
Michael Spicer (CEO: Business Leadership SA): "Nationalisation is a plane that has crashed a hundred times out of a hundred and yet the proponents say, 'Ah, no, we are better pilots... this plane, if we fly it, will take off.'"
You're one of the self-proclaimed "better pilots" and you're on a collision course with disaster. I'm willing to bet that Mr. Spicer knows what he's talking about here. Or are you just simply going to call him names too?
It doesn't work, end of story. Please try and get this into your head.
Shayd
Expert Member
I don't really understand the hatred towards the US or UK. If it weren't for these guys apartheid would most likely still be in full force. It is the impact of restricted trade that brought down the apartheid government, not the "struggle" as many people seem to believe.
It's like mugabe came down and brainwashed the locals to believe his bullshyte. The US and UK couldn't give a damn about zimbabwe and I promise they don't give a damn about us either. Many said zimbabwe will not be allowed to fail due to their mineral resources and many thought china would save them. Perhaps those people should see how zimbabwe hasn't "failed".
We already retain the vast majority of money generated through mining. If you take wages, tax paid, royalties, bee. These don't leave very much for the actual companies. So little actually that a large chunk of our mining industry has moved offshore already. We are in the middle of a gold boom yet the local industry employs less people than in 1920.
We should be looking forward not backwards. We need to realise that minerals will not be the future of this country and simply taking the ownership of these companies will not help us.
Secondly why is there the belief that there is some rich fatcat that owns these firms. The largest investors in the world are pension funds, so yes the vast majority of owners are the very workers themselves.
Basically vioadmin, before this debate can go any further someone needs to give people all the facts because there is definitely a misconception that isn't being corrected here. The lack of this knowledge is allowing complete idiots like malema to say nationalisation is good.
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It's like mugabe came down and brainwashed the locals to believe his bullshyte. The US and UK couldn't give a damn about zimbabwe and I promise they don't give a damn about us either. Many said zimbabwe will not be allowed to fail due to their mineral resources and many thought china would save them. Perhaps those people should see how zimbabwe hasn't "failed".
We already retain the vast majority of money generated through mining. If you take wages, tax paid, royalties, bee. These don't leave very much for the actual companies. So little actually that a large chunk of our mining industry has moved offshore already. We are in the middle of a gold boom yet the local industry employs less people than in 1920.
We should be looking forward not backwards. We need to realise that minerals will not be the future of this country and simply taking the ownership of these companies will not help us.
Secondly why is there the belief that there is some rich fatcat that owns these firms. The largest investors in the world are pension funds, so yes the vast majority of owners are the very workers themselves.
Basically vioadmin, before this debate can go any further someone needs to give people all the facts because there is definitely a misconception that isn't being corrected here. The lack of this knowledge is allowing complete idiots like malema to say nationalisation is good.
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the problem is not nationalization. the problem is the administration of the nationalized assets. we simply do not seem to have the capacity to do this successfully.
SAA -> loss, SABC -> loss, Aurora -> Loss, Transnet -> Loss, Eskom -> Loss, etc, etc, etc
SAA -> loss, SABC -> loss, Aurora -> Loss, Transnet -> Loss, Eskom -> Loss, etc, etc, etc
Shayd
Expert Member
Wrong, nationalisation is bad period. Your argument is good but at the end of the day nationalisation is government theft and no company will invest in an economy that has an unreliable, read thieving, government.
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Mining requires massive capital funding on a continuous basis, especially in South Africa where our mining efforts are quickly falling from the top of the perch they were once situated on. Unfortunately for the proponents of nationalisation, this funding requirement will be their downfall as there is simply no way for the government to be able to secure the necessary funding to remain competitive in this sort of global environment, not without illegally doing so in terms of international trade and therefore risking an embargo. This is not even beginning to consider the impact of adding this required debt to our already stretched balance sheet. And the cherry on top is that they willnot be able to access this funding through the traditionally cheaper capital markets, nor through investors, as they would flee any government controlled company.
Eskom embody everything wrong with nationalisation because they highlight the exact problems that every single nationalised company has faced: principal-agent issues; long-term capital funding failures; inefficiency; moral hazard; slowly becoming uncompetitive as a result of not being able to compete with better funded global companies etc.
The ANCYL seem to believe that they can redirect the cash flow of Billiton for example into the fiscus but it simply doesn't work like that. And let's not forget that miners make up the vast majority of our stock exchange, so much so to the point that when Anglos and Biillitons move sharply, so does the All Share Index. This would have a very negative impact on liquidity flows and see much of it redirected outside of our borders.
No longer do I think that Malema is doing this to curry favour with voters - I now see this as something far bigger. IMO he's going to suggest that we do something similar to what Nigeria are currently doing, where they are imposing near impossible targets for banks to comply with. If they fail to do so, they are nationalised with no compensation. This is what I see Malema proposing happen in SA and it's a far more eloquent way for him to package than merely passing a new blanket "nationalisation" law. He could in fact use economic terrorism as an argument for it - in fact the new secrecy bill might just be a pre-emptive strike at exactly this. If this happens, we truly will have a major problem on our hands...
Eskom embody everything wrong with nationalisation because they highlight the exact problems that every single nationalised company has faced: principal-agent issues; long-term capital funding failures; inefficiency; moral hazard; slowly becoming uncompetitive as a result of not being able to compete with better funded global companies etc.
The ANCYL seem to believe that they can redirect the cash flow of Billiton for example into the fiscus but it simply doesn't work like that. And let's not forget that miners make up the vast majority of our stock exchange, so much so to the point that when Anglos and Biillitons move sharply, so does the All Share Index. This would have a very negative impact on liquidity flows and see much of it redirected outside of our borders.
No longer do I think that Malema is doing this to curry favour with voters - I now see this as something far bigger. IMO he's going to suggest that we do something similar to what Nigeria are currently doing, where they are imposing near impossible targets for banks to comply with. If they fail to do so, they are nationalised with no compensation. This is what I see Malema proposing happen in SA and it's a far more eloquent way for him to package than merely passing a new blanket "nationalisation" law. He could in fact use economic terrorism as an argument for it - in fact the new secrecy bill might just be a pre-emptive strike at exactly this. If this happens, we truly will have a major problem on our hands...
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You honestly think this will succeed? Especially in the hands of Julius and his friends? :wtf:
Yes I say Juluis and yes friends cause lets just admit it, this is more about money in their own pockets than helping out South Africans.
EffKay
Well-Known Member
VioAdmin is proletariat.,
Double Posted due to Firefox doing the dirty.
Double Posted due to Firefox doing the dirty.
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EffKay
Well-Known Member
VioAdmin is proletariat.
Control what exactly?
TRADE is the back-bone of production and productivity is the thing that makes the common people wealthy.
What makes the powerful wealthy is conquest and force and theft so this is where Julius Malema and his ilk come into the picture.
You VioAdmin are another sadly misguided idiot who has not understood where money comes from and what it's for and you will be of the first upon the bonfire of any new dispensation who seeks to take anything by force.
So you can gladly have all the "so-called" money but you and your ilk will never have any of the real wealth as there is this barrier called "Work" which will perpetually confound you and yours. But your ill-informed attitude is typical of someone who will always be a "wage earner" and someone who "needs a job" rather than those who pay the wages and make the jobs happen.
In other words, VioAdmin you are proudly proletariat.
Leave the creation of Capital Assets to ... the capitalists, before you hurt yourself and go crying off to some charity fund that: "You broke it and don't know how to fix it..."
Control what exactly?
TRADE is the back-bone of production and productivity is the thing that makes the common people wealthy.
What makes the powerful wealthy is conquest and force and theft so this is where Julius Malema and his ilk come into the picture.
You VioAdmin are another sadly misguided idiot who has not understood where money comes from and what it's for and you will be of the first upon the bonfire of any new dispensation who seeks to take anything by force.
So you can gladly have all the "so-called" money but you and your ilk will never have any of the real wealth as there is this barrier called "Work" which will perpetually confound you and yours. But your ill-informed attitude is typical of someone who will always be a "wage earner" and someone who "needs a job" rather than those who pay the wages and make the jobs happen.
In other words, VioAdmin you are proudly proletariat.
Leave the creation of Capital Assets to ... the capitalists, before you hurt yourself and go crying off to some charity fund that: "You broke it and don't know how to fix it..."
Can you explain to me how nationalising banks will put you in control of money?
Banks do not print money, nor do their actions influence macro-economic policy. Do you know how the banking sector works and what its role even is? Do you understand the difference between an FNB and the SARB? By the sounds of things you don't, but I'd like to get your answers on these issues you think you'll be resolving. Or are you talking about controlling individuals' money?
Another thing, why does the government NEED to have control over this money?
EffKay
Well-Known Member
How exactly will "Nationalisation" or the administration of the mines be better than it is now?
How will Taxes be paid if the mines are owned by the Government?
How will liabilities be offset in the capital intensive mining industry?
Will YOU pay from your personal income taxes the costs of mining and prospection?
Privatization is (actually) a MASSIVELY beneficial innovation of commerce that sprang about in the 1800's because it has huge benefits for shielding industry sectors from each other and allowing risks to be taken which don't sink the entire GOVERNMENT along with it!
This is why we no longer have kings owning every little company and industry any more. The risk is too high to have one entity responsible for running everything and funding it and being LIABLE (financially) for it too.
In a nationalised system, if a mine were to go under causing a MASSIVE dent in the national budget, we would have to "rescue" that mine with TAX money.
Yours and mine and if the mine was no longer viable (the minerals DO run out eventually) then who picks up the can for this?
The government?
and when it runs out of money? They either cut back on expensive social welfare and medical and / or they print money and inflate the money supply and make your life savings worth NOTHING in as little as 5 years.
And that's ONE Mine...
If there's an industrial action in the "Government Workers Union" which would now include all the newly nationalised employees of the state, how would you settle wage negotiations? What are you in fact actually paying your new government employees with? Tax money?
Tax money collected from whom? The other nationalised workers and new government employees?
This confusion leads to: Higher personal taxes because everyone's wages are actually paid from everyone's taxes and if one sector's employees demands higher wages, they get it at the expense of another sector's employees... and the problem COMPOUNDS with interest...
And add into that concept: Bank Charges and Interest on loans and other suggestions and picture what will happen when there are no barriers to for everyone getting to one another's money...
It will not be "fair" or "nice"... Wars have happened over less.
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