Criminals on patrol?

DreamKing

DreamKing

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http://www.da.org.za/newsroom.htm?action=view-news-item&id=7156

Law breakers cannot be law enforcers
Dianne Kohler Barnard, Shadow Minister of Police
24 August 2009

This morning’s reports of police officers who have been convicted of crimes and who are subsequently allowed to continue to work as police officers, is a long standing problem and one that must be rectified as a matter of urgency.

Convicted SAPS members as well as officers charged with crimes, appear to still be working for the Service. The fact that law breakers are allowed to continue service as law enforcers, is wrong, and highlights fundamental deficiencies within the Police Service.

The Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD), the police ‘watchdog’, has often recommended suspension or other disciplinary action against certain SAPS members for their conduct, but these recommendations have often been ignored. The last available information from 2008 showed, in fact, that only 58% of ICD recommendations were followed.

I submitted a private member’s legislative proposal with the Speaker’s office in June 2009, to propose empowering the ICD and to create a greater onus on the SAPS to enact recommendations. As of today, I am still waiting to present my proposal before the Committee on Private Members Legislative Proposals. The top structures are all talking about getting tough on crime, but what about getting tough on crime within the SAPS?

The ICD in the 2008/2009 financial year received over 6119 complaints against SAPS members, almost half of which were for misconduct.

Police members convicted of crimes cannot be allowed to continue as law enforcers. How can the South African public be expected to trust a police service that bankrolls tried and convicted criminals? The DA will today put questions to the Minister of Police to establish how many police officers employed by the SAPS have been convicted of crimes.
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damn, that is the reason why high crime rate in SA. :mad:
 
Dean said:
One of the MANY contributing factors, although I'm sure there are a few bigger ones than this.
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Sorry I don't agree !

If "criminals on patrol" is real, that explained why so many cases still unsolved.

The reason is "criminals have connections with criminals." Those "criminals" will destroy all evidences bring to court to help their "buddies".

that is more serious that your imagination!

we are asking "criminals" to protect us and keep away from criminals, is that possible?
 
You seem to think that all police officers are corrupt criminals?
 
R13... said:
Is there a police force in the world without at least one corrupt member?
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I think you guys mis-read this thread. (Convicted SAPS MEMBERS)

"Criminal" not "corrupted officer"

you ok a look like "officer" but "criminal" to "assist" you?

if a guy looks like a criminal I may try to escape from him,
but a police suppose to protect me but he robs me, what do you think? :eek:

How can I reckon that is "a police" or "a criminal" ? :mad:
 
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DreamKing said:
one is more than enough :mad:
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Okay we're a bit off point on that, but whatever. DreamKing, if you honestly think that this is the single reason for bad crime stats in SA, have fun with that.
The rest of us will just politely disagree.

Do you think that a "regular" corrupt cop is better than a convicted corrupt cop? I think they're EXACTLY the same - in practise, and pose an equal amount of "danger" to society. I'm almost certain that we can find evidence of corruption in every single police force on the planet. In fact, a "convicted" corrupt cop MAY be better, as he's been caught once on the wrong side of the justice system and knows it could happen just as easily again.

However, the problem comes in with enforcement. Obviously if these guys are getting off scot-free, they'll have little incentive to keep on the straight and narrow. In THIS case, I'm less worried about the actual cops than I am about the people who are supposed to be watching the cops :/

Honestly wonder sometimes how hard it must be to earn less than R7K/month, have to feed, shelter, educate, and keep a family safe. And to get that <7K/month, you have to put your life at high risk every day for 12 hours. It's easy for us to say that we would still never be corrupt, etc etc... but we've never been in the situation, so judgement stays reserved.
My point though, is that the temptation will always be there. Some cops may fall into the trap, others may not. Either way, the most important part is that they know that the consequences of being convicted will be harsh - and that's up to the cop watchers in question.
 
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Dean said:
Okay we're a bit off point on that, but whatever. DreamKing, if you honestly think that this is the single reason for bad crime stats in SA, have fun with that.
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I never said "only factor" / "single reason" etc ......
But it is a "serious factor" to affect our security..........

Dean said:
The rest of us will just politely disagree.
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I welcome as many voices as possible to say "we want criminal in our police force?” I am doubtful. (Except criminals)

Dean said:
Do you think that a "regular" corrupt cop is better than a convicted corrupt cop?
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Yes I really did.

Dean said:
I think they're EXACTLY the same - in practise, and pose an equal amount of "danger" to society. I'm almost certain that we can find evidence of corruption in every single police force on the planet.
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may be some of non-convicted cops act the same as convicted cops (may be worse) but I definitely sure you cannot put an equal sign to both. I am sure a lot of good cops are trying to protect civilians. Unfortunately, the public images of police will be damaged by the "criminals act cops". No matter the cops are non-convicted / convicted cops, if they act like a criminal, they have to prohibit to stay in the police force.

Dean said:
In fact, a "convicted" corrupt cop MAY be better, as he's been caught once on the wrong side of the justice system and knows it could happen just as easily again.
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never ever, you just give the wrong signal to those criminals. "This is fine if you get caught; you will re-employ and sits in the same position." You are encouraging people to be a criminal! :mad: In many other countries, if you have a criminal record (no matter how serious is), The government never employ you in any government posts, not only police force. It shows the people the government has zero tolerance to any criminal behaviour. Your life is over if you are a criminal. The theory is to tell the public no second chance is given to a criminal, which means the people should not do the crime in the very first place.

Dean said:
However, the problem comes in with enforcement. Obviously if these guys are getting off scot-free, they'll have little incentive to keep on the straight and narrow. In THIS case, I'm less worried about the actual cops than I am about the people who are supposed to be watching the cops :/
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Funny, who is going to "watch" the police when they are performing?
Only disciplines lead the police acts like a policeman.

Dean said:
Honestly wonder sometimes how hard it must be to earn less than R7K/month, have to feed, shelter, educate, and keep a family safe. And to get that <7K/month, you have to put your life at high risk every day for 12 hours. It's easy for us to say that we would still never be corrupt, etc etc... but we've never been in the situation, so judgement stays reserved.
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according to your theory, your employees or your domestic workers are free to steal from you because they may think "not enough" of their salaries. When they got caught, you are happy to re-employ them in the same position? It is very interesting. :eek:

Dean said:
My point though, is that the temptation will always be there. Some cops may fall into the trap, others may not. Either way, the most important part is that they know that the consequences of being convicted will be harsh - and that's up to the cop watchers in question.
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According to your theory, it is no any consequences, they got caught or not it doesn't matter.
 
http://southafrica-pig.blogspot.com/search/label/MURDER

Crooked cops still at work
Police officers charged with or even convicted of crimes in the Western Cape are being allowed to stay in their jobs, in contravention of national police policy.

At least four cases have come to light in the past month in which police officers who have appeared in court or been convicted of crimes ranging from theft to rape, are still at work.

More than a dozen others under investigation for a suspect's death are also still at work, as are two others who admitted to fiddling crime statistics.

The cases are:



A station commissioner who has been convicted on two assault charges, as well as crimen injuria and intimidation;


A police officer charged with raping his 11-year-old half-sister over a period of eight years;


A police officer charged for selling stolen police equipment;


Fifteen police officer under investigation for six months for the death of a man in their custody; and


Two officers who pleaded guilty in a disciplinary hearing to altering case docket details.

Provincial police say "each case (in considering suspension) will be dealt with on its own merit". But according to National Police spokesperson Selby Bokaba, national policy is that an officer must be suspended when he or she is charged, or found guilty in court.

Earlier this month former Somerset West station commissioner Sandile Sonjani, who now works in Athlone, was found guilty in court of two assaults, intimidation and crimen injuria relating to attacks on a subordinate in 2007. He was sentenced to five months in jail or a R3 000 fine and plans to appeal.

After the attacks Sonjani was moved to Athlone police station, where he is commissioner.

Police spokesperson Billy Jones confirmed that Sonjani had never been suspended.

He said: "When an officer is found guilty it does not imply that the member is immediately suspended. The suspension is done in terms of (police) disciplinary procedures and not in terms of a criminal conviction."

Factors such as whether the officer had pleaded guilty, how much responsibility the officer had, and his or her rank would be taken into account.

He said the police's "discipline management section will now procedurally look at the matter" and once Sonjani's appeal was concluded, would decide whether he was still fit to be a police officer.

National police spokesperson Selby Bokaba said: "When a (policeman) is charged or convicted in court, irrespective of the crime or that person's rank, that person is immediately suspended. I'm quoting from the national regulations."

Bokaba said there may have been "unique circumstances" in Sonjani's case but he did not know of any. But he said the suspension regulation was "clear" and rank played no role in the decision.

The officer stationed at Harare police station in Khayelitsha, charged with raping his little sister for eight years, was in custody after his arrest on July 29 and appeared in court, but was then released on bail.

He may not be named to protect the identity of his alleged victim, who was initially placed in foster care, but returned to her parents on a Somerset West Magistrate's instruction.

The police officer has been given the green light to go back to work at the Harare police station. He will remain an actively serving officer for at least the duration of his trial, unless a disciplinary hearing orders otherwise.

"When a (police) member is arrested or in... custody... for that period while the member is under arrest or in custody, he or she is under immediate suspension - which means he or she cannot exercise their policing duty and mandated authority," Jones said.

"When the member is released ... then that immediate suspension is lifted. Thereafter the normal disciplinary processes kicks in if the member is still implicated and has to appear in court."

Ocean View constable Hilton Basson was arrested on July 27 for stealing and selling police radios to towing companies. He appeared in the Simon's Town Magistrate's Court and is back at work. Police said depending on the outcome of an internal investigation, he might be suspended at a future date.

Fifteen Organised Crime Unit members, who may not be named because they have not been formally charged, have been under investigation since February for the death of Sidwell Mkwambi, 24. They have not been suspended in spite of a recommendation by the police watchdog body, the Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD).

It is alleged Mkwambi was beaten at the Bellville South police station where the 15 work, before he was driven in a police van to a mortuary.

Two months ago community safety MEC Lennit Max said there had been "insufficient evidence" to warrant suspensions.

And in a case that didn't make it to court, a disciplinary hearing was last week concluded for two Lansdowne inspectors who pleaded guilty to incorrectly registering case dockets.

Posted by ZeroTolerance at 11:12 PM 0 comments Links to this post
Labels: ASSAULT, CORRUPTION, CRIME, MURDER, RAPE, SAPS, THEFT
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you guys like this? (dean, R13..., Fudzy)
 
DreamKing said:
I never said "only factor" / "single reason" etc ......
But it is a "serious factor" to affect our security..........
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Well that's kind of exactly what I was disputing... it's the way it came across to us, it seems.

Yes I really did.
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I don't follow the logic, please explain...


may be some of non-convicted cops act the same as convicted cops (may be worse) but I definitely sure you cannot put an equal sign to both. I am sure a lot of good cops are trying to protect civilians. Unfortunately, the public images of police will be damaged by the "criminals act cops". No matter the cops are non-convicted / convicted cops, if they act like a criminal, they have to prohibit to stay in the police force.
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Please be careful to note that I am referring only to corrupt cops. That's CONVICTED corrupt cops and NON-CONVICTED corrupt cops. I'm well aware that there are many good cops - but clearly this thread has nothing to do with them. Again, I fail to see the benefit of a non-convicted corrupt cop over a convicted corrupt cop.


never ever, you just give the wrong signal to those criminals. "This is fine if you get caught; you will re-employ and sits in the same position." You are encouraging people to be a criminal! :mad: In many other countries, if you have a criminal record (no matter how serious is), The government never employ you in any government posts, not only police force. It shows the people the government has zero tolerance to any criminal behaviour. Your life is over if you are a criminal. The theory is to tell the public no second chance is given to a criminal, which means the people should not do the crime in the very first place.
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Exactly, which is why I'm worried about the ENFORCERS of the policy. I recognise that there are certain problems which are here to stay for now (all discussed re: temptation), so I'm saying that I'm more interested in the enforcer's lack of enforcement (of punishment), rather than the fact that cops are tempted (referring the short term only, obviously)


Funny, who is going to "watch" the police when they are performing?
Only disciplines lead the police acts like a policeman.
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You seem to have misinterpreted my use of "watch". I meant the ICD, etc.. those who oversee the police (without necessarily physically seeing them)


according to your theory, your employees or your domestic workers are free to steal from you because they may think "not enough" of their salaries. When they got caught, you are happy to re-employ them in the same position? It is very interesting. :eek:

According to your theory, it is no any consequences, they got caught or not it doesn't matter.
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That's nonsense. You have completely misinterpreted the meaning of what I said, so let me explain -
I am merely pointing out that temptation is there and is there to stay - for many reasons. We can't expect to get rid of this temptation, so in the short term, we must rather focus on changing/enforcing the institutional incentives to not be corrupt. I believe that this is the main focus of the article, in fact.
 
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What is the original source of that document, Dreamking?

I'm not saying that there won't be a few rotten apples. If you don't feel that the police are going to protect you or uphold the law on a whole then get out, get out now.
 
Do you think that a "regular" [-]corrupt[/-] cop is better than a convicted corrupt cop?
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I read it. Sorry!

My responses based on above.

I am merely pointing out that temptation is there and is there to stay - for many reasons. We can't expect to get rid of this temptation, so in the short term, we must rather focus on changing/enforcing the institutional incentives to not be corrupt. I believe that this is the main focus of the article, in fact.
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I also cannnot agree with you as above.

If you get rid of the criminals in the force, that is the best way to incense "not be corrupt."

the best "watcher" is their fellow colleagues, should encourage culture of "whistle-blower" rather than culture of cover-up. Agree?
 
Fudzy said:
What is the original source of that document, Dreamking?
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link is there, check it!

Fudzy said:
I'm not saying that there won't be a few rotten apples. If you don't feel that the police are going to protect you or uphold the law on a whole then get out, get out now.
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I think I heard something similar before .......... are you anc member?

I remembered only anc said something like this before,

"If you don't like crimes in SA, leave the country."

anyone can remain me who said that?
 
DreamKing said:
link is there, check it!
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Blogs are blocked @ work. I wanted to know what the source of the article was or did the blogger write it himself?

DreamKing said:
I think I heard something similar before .......... are you anc member?

I remembered only anc said something like this before,

"If you don't like crimes in SA, leave the country."

anyone can remain me who said that?
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Hey even if I felt the police were out to get me I'd pack my bags too.
 
Fudzy said:
Blogs are blocked @ work. I wanted to know what the source of the article was or did the blogger write it himself?
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my source is that Blog,
how that "doc" appear on the "Blog", I don't know, ask the "Blog". :D

Fudzy said:
Hey even if I felt the police were out to get me I'd pack my bags too.
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are you not only a anc member, and a criminal too? :eek:
 
DreamKing said:
my source is that Blog,
how that "doc" appear on the "Blog", I don't know, ask the "Blog". :D
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From blog:

Police officers charged with or even convicted of crimes in the Western Cape are being allowed to stay in their jobs, in contravention of national police policy.

Police officers charged with or even convicted of crimes in the Western Cape are being allowed to stay in their jobs, in contravention of national police policy.

At least four cases have come to light in the past month in which police officers who have appeared in court or been convicted of crimes ranging from theft to rape, are still at work.

A police officer charged with raping his 11-year-old half-sister over a period of eight years;
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From Sunday Times: http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1042519

A POLICEMAN accused of raping his 11-year-old half-sister over an eight year period had been previously convicted of theft and had later been suspended from the SAPS for abusing drugs.
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How can he still be at work if he's suspended?
 
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